Finnriver Craft Cider Tasting Party

Cider Tasting Party Featuring Finnriver’s Head Cidermaker, Andrew Byers

SipScout Craft Alcohol Membership Club – January, 2023

As part of SipScout, he first membership club for craft drinks explorers, we host a virtual tasting party every month so our members can dive into that month’s kit with certified professionals and sometimes even the makers themselves. Like this month, when head cidermaker and co-founder, Andrew Byers of Finnriver Farm & Cidery joins us to teach us so much about cider and farming as well as dive into their three craft ciders included in this month’s kit!



Here are the three craft ciders we’ll be sipping on:

1. Farmstead Semi-Sweet Cider
2. Fresh Hopped Dry Cider
3: Pome & Stone Sour Cider


Bottles of craft beer, wine, and spirits

Are You A Craft Drink Explorer?

Always planning trips around visiting local breweries, wineries, cider houses, or distilleries? Love discovering new drinks and learning about the people and stories behind them?

Then you, my friend…are a natural SipScout! Join the first and only rotating craft alcohol membership club to get a monthly kit that goes along with our monthly SipScout party and join in on the fun!

Join SipScout

About Your Hosts

The Crafty Cask celebrates and supports craft alcohol makers through engaging consumer content, events, virtual tastings, and online education. We help craft enthusiasts drink better and craft makers market their brands better to build thriving small businesses that keep #TipplerNation drinking well!

Your hosts for this event, alongside the featured maker, are Suzanne Henricksen, Founder of The Crafty Cask and Evan Rothrock, sommelier, certified cider professional, mixologist, and bespoke wine tour guide.

The Finnriver crew farms and ferments in the Chimacum Valley, in organic fields and orchards located along a salmon stream on the north Olympic Peninsula of Washington, the traditional and contemporary territories of the S’Klallam (Nəxʷsƛ̕áy̕əm̕) and the Chemakum (Aqokúlo or Čə́məq̓əm). While our farm is remote, we’re honored to be on the forefront of the Pacific Northwest hard cider revival and to craft ciders that both recognize historic hard cider traditions and offer fresh perspectives on the possibilities of the fermented apple. We grow and source organic and seasonal ingredients to help grow a vibrant regional community food system.

Ready to visit or buy some of the delicious featured craft booze for yourself? Good thinking! Get Finnriver’s incredible ciders delivered to you at home here. 


Finnriver Farm & Cidery

Read the transcript

00:00:02,169 –> 00:00:04,125
Hello Hello every one

00:00:04,125 –> 00:00:05,786
Hi! Welcome..

00:00:05,786 –> 00:00:09,304

00:00:09,304 –> 00:00:14,468
Ready for cider drinking tonight? uhm uhm..

00:00:14,468 –> 00:00:17,490
cider is one of my all-time favorites so I
am very excited about this and I’ve become

00:00:17,490 –> 00:00:28,060
a big fan of it thanks to you as well yeah
for sure for sure [Music] hey Andrew how are

00:00:28,060 –> 00:00:29,060

00:00:29,060 –> 00:00:36,100
cute there we go I’m doing great nice to see
you both again uh we can’t hear you hold on

00:00:36,100 –> 00:00:40,140
maybe that’s on my end there we go we got
you fantastic nice to see you both again oh

00:00:40,140 –> 00:00:46,280
yeah what’s it been at least a year if not
longer we were just talking about the last

00:00:46,280 –> 00:00:47,879
virtual tasting where you joined us it was
so much fun not for the blip it seems also

00:00:47,879 –> 00:00:57,840
things move fastly sis determinable amount
of time has passed in almost no time with

00:00:57,840 –> 00:01:06,800
the same breath I know really so welcome everyone
um we are here tonight Andrew is the head

00:01:06,800 –> 00:01:15,659
cider maker and co-owner yes we are very excited
to have him here we’re gonna get started momentarily

00:01:15,659 –> 00:01:20,500
but we have our three ciders here if you got
your SipScout kit this month these are the

00:01:20,500 –> 00:01:24,000
three ciders you have in your kit and man
we’re super excited about these we’ve been

00:01:24,000 –> 00:01:30,470
drinking thin River cider for quite a while
um trying to remember when when I discovered

00:01:30,470 –> 00:01:35,900
them originally um but when I really started
getting into craft cider you know there’s

00:01:35,900 –> 00:01:42,170
the big farm to table movement you hear a
lot of in you know the in the dining world

00:01:42,170 –> 00:01:45,570
in the food world and then you sometimes hear
about grain the glass and the distilling world

00:01:45,570 –> 00:01:50,329
and farmed glass and as soon as I heard the
story of Finn River I was like oh man this

00:01:50,329 –> 00:01:55,979
is like real craft and really like supporting
local farmers and having a farm like a state

00:01:55,979 –> 00:02:01,210
there they have a really cool story that you’re
going to hear a lot about tonight from Andrew

00:02:01,210 –> 00:02:07,390
um supporting them and actually Andrew since
we have you here yeah we’ve had an idea in

00:02:07,390 –> 00:02:15,390
mind as to how we would drink these what order
um defer to you so functionally I feel like

00:02:15,390 –> 00:02:20,569
we should set the palette with Farmstead uh
and kind of get to that point of text taste

00:02:20,569 –> 00:02:24,239
like cider smells like cider tastes like apple
smells like apples that kind of thing it sets

00:02:24,239 –> 00:02:29,790
a good groundwork um whereas the other two
present uh sorry my stash is behind me the

00:02:29,790 –> 00:02:35,970
other two present uh uh adjuncts and and those
adjuncts you know being uh you know herbaceous

00:02:35,970 –> 00:02:41,750
Botanicals versus uh stone fruit um and they
feel like deviations from a form so my thinking

00:02:41,750 –> 00:02:46,900
is that we would start with something that
is just off dry uh again Apple Focus Apple

00:02:46,900 –> 00:02:51,780
Centric uh and then we would uh follow that
with a deviation into the dry hop and then

00:02:51,780 –> 00:02:56,269
finish with the palm and stone because it
brings some of the wild Funk as well as a

00:02:56,269 –> 00:03:02,480
fair bit of peachy sweetness oh yeah that’s
your order yeah that sounds great we were

00:03:02,480 –> 00:03:06,220
we were debating whether we should do the
Palm Stone first or the second or the dry

00:03:06,220 –> 00:03:12,959
hot second so great to get that recommendation
there and since the fresh hopped is new to

00:03:12,959 –> 00:03:17,300
us we weren’t really sure where to fit yeah
how different it is we’ve had the dry hop

00:03:17,300 –> 00:03:22,540
in the past but we’re excited to try this
this fresh hop tonight so um yeah that sounds

00:03:22,540 –> 00:03:26,650
great and yeah and for those of you you know
we talk a lot about tasting techniques and

00:03:26,650 –> 00:03:30,239
kind of what order to taste things in and
some of you you know you might be scratching

00:03:30,239 –> 00:03:33,319
your head saying like wait a minute I thought
we often tasted dried data Suite right you

00:03:33,319 –> 00:03:37,150
kind of start with the drier things move to
Sweet and that is often but there’s a lot

00:03:37,150 –> 00:03:40,580
of different variables that you have to take
into account when you’re thinking about the

00:03:40,580 –> 00:03:45,530
tasting order one of which is sugar you know
the sweetness level another is the alcohol

00:03:45,530 –> 00:03:51,860
level as well so whether it’s higher in alcohol
lower in alcohol another is you know funkiness

00:03:51,860 –> 00:03:55,819
or fruitiness or things that are going to
kind of like take your palate in One Direction

00:03:55,819 –> 00:03:59,780
and be a little hard maybe to bring it back
from yeah and that’s likely why maybe this

00:03:59,780 –> 00:04:05,379
more sour cider is kind of near the end yeah
um what if all those insiders is a is a very

00:04:05,379 –> 00:04:10,200
important component of figuring out the tasting
order what follows anything that you’re tasting

00:04:10,200 –> 00:04:15,730
I’m kind of trying to appreciate values and
quality and stuff yeah um but thank you for

00:04:15,730 –> 00:04:21,729
that that input Andrew um and while you are
all joining us please feel free to crack open

00:04:21,729 –> 00:04:28,370
any and all of them yeah um and yeah the the
order that we’ll drink them in as Andrew just

00:04:28,370 –> 00:04:32,440
mentioned here is The Farmstead followed by
the fresh hops followed by the palm and stone

00:04:32,440 –> 00:04:38,040
um but and so we’re actually going to take
our second and third one and put them in a

00:04:38,040 –> 00:04:41,500
little ice bucket here just to keep them a
little colder while we’re talking but we will

00:04:41,500 –> 00:04:45,830
what we’ll do is we all will like take the
second one out a little bit before we think

00:04:45,830 –> 00:04:49,270
we’re going to start drinking it right because
you really want and you know Andrew I’m sure

00:04:49,270 –> 00:04:53,009
you can talk to this better than I can but
you know you want your cider to be cold but

00:04:53,009 –> 00:04:57,229
you don’t want it to be ice cold you want
it to be kind of a little bit warmer and it

00:04:57,229 –> 00:05:00,830
probably depends on the varietal um so that
you can get some of those nuances and the

00:05:00,830 –> 00:05:04,240
flavors and the different things kind of going
on there I’m just going to leave these up

00:05:04,240 –> 00:05:10,210
as a reference for a little bit so should
we pour our first cider and yeah talk a little

00:05:10,210 –> 00:05:16,199
let’s get us everyone drinking here um why
thank you you’re welcome and Andrew we would

00:05:16,199 –> 00:05:19,600
love it if you could you know tell everyone
a little bit about this cider that they’re

00:05:19,600 –> 00:05:23,940
going to start drinking first and then maybe
tell us a little bit about your story becoming

00:05:23,940 –> 00:05:27,950
a cider maker and then as we continue to pace
through these we can talk more specifically

00:05:27,950 –> 00:05:32,970
about Finn River and we may be jumping the
gun just in case anybody hasn’t attended one

00:05:32,970 –> 00:05:37,660
of these before uh my name’s Evan I’m a certified
professional this is Suzanne she’s the co-founder

00:05:37,660 –> 00:05:42,050
of the crafty Cafe I’m not the co-founder
who’s the who’s my co-founder I’m sorry you’re

00:05:42,050 –> 00:05:48,280
the you’re the president and CEO and founder
who’s my co-founder right now um yes yeah

00:05:48,280 –> 00:05:52,979
so we’re volleyball cast celebrating and supporting
craft alcohol producers absolutely the lovely

00:05:52,979 –> 00:05:57,880
Finn River um and and many others yeah and
you know for those of you who are SipScout

00:05:57,880 –> 00:06:01,139
members you got your nice little tip Scout
box this month with Finn River inside of it

00:06:01,139 –> 00:06:06,320
so we’re very excited about that um and next
month what you have coming up is going to

00:06:06,320 –> 00:06:10,229
look a little different we’re partnering that’s
right with a really fun company called Master

00:06:10,229 –> 00:06:15,530
the world wines um and our SipScout kind
of sticker will be right on here and she you’ll

00:06:15,530 –> 00:06:20,110
be getting three different wines and some
chocolates next month because we’re doing

00:06:20,110 –> 00:06:25,360
a wine and chocolate tasting for Valentine’s
Day um and it’s also going to be you know

00:06:25,360 –> 00:06:29,449
they’re all craft wines but two of them are
from out of the country so we’ll be kind of

00:06:29,449 –> 00:06:33,160
taking a little tour around the world so we’ll
be traveling and eating chocolate and drinking

00:06:33,160 –> 00:06:39,810
wine for for Valentine’s Day yeah um so yeah
we’re very excited about that but back to

00:06:39,810 –> 00:06:46,669
the yeah program cheers to all of you thanks
for being here cheers um and let’s uh yeah

00:06:46,669 –> 00:06:52,710
let’s kick it over to the now Andrew you are
not just inside of maker you are a co-founder

00:06:52,710 –> 00:06:59,949
right maybe that’s where the co-founder kind
of blurted uh to a certain extent um I came

00:06:59,949 –> 00:07:04,990
I think I showed up at Finn River in year
two uh of what they were doing uh I was their

00:07:04,990 –> 00:07:13,590
uh second cider employee uh and there was
a trio of our Founders and those uh Christy

00:07:13,590 –> 00:07:18,449
and Keith who happen to be married uh and
then uh Eric Jorgensen who lives across the

00:07:18,449 –> 00:07:25,620
valley uh and those three together kind of
hit this Vision up to produce a value-added

00:07:25,620 –> 00:07:29,640
product that would help save the farm and
so there’s a lot that uh speaks to Finn River

00:07:29,640 –> 00:07:36,669
about value-added product or you know agricultural
uh competencies the way that you can pay bills

00:07:36,669 –> 00:07:40,810
um and be a farmer is quite difficult and
so historically speaking you would say things

00:07:40,810 –> 00:07:46,130
like the first generation uh uh Endeavors
to buy the land the second generation Endeavors

00:07:46,130 –> 00:07:50,389
to pay off the land and the third generation
is the first opportunity that you would see

00:07:50,389 –> 00:07:56,610
a profit and so in this day and age uh those
kind of legacies are even more few and far

00:07:56,610 –> 00:08:03,880
between and so if you wanted to uh acquire
agricultural land and then uh talk to your

00:08:03,880 –> 00:08:07,979
investors and be like so in three generations
we’re thinking we’ll be in a position uh to

00:08:07,979 –> 00:08:12,970
have you all paid back and then we’ll be profitable
um that doesn’t sound so good and so we’ve

00:08:12,970 –> 00:08:17,039
been in a process in the last say like 50
years in the United States of redefining the

00:08:17,039 –> 00:08:22,800
finances of small-scale Agriculture you see
some of that in the farm to table action um

00:08:22,800 –> 00:08:28,229
trying to uh uh monetize more directly in
small-scale communities but you also see that

00:08:28,229 –> 00:08:34,140
in the uh Pursuit Of value-added Products
in this case we grow some apples we buy a

00:08:34,140 –> 00:08:40,700
lot of juice in as well and we take and we
modify or process or embellish upon what has

00:08:40,700 –> 00:08:44,190
grown on the land to give you something that
is more than just the raw product so it’s

00:08:44,190 –> 00:08:48,820
not just the carrot out of the ground um but
it’s the carrot pesto that’s packaged in a

00:08:48,820 –> 00:08:53,950
little jar that uh goes into your Bistro um
those kind of Notions and that is really what

00:08:53,950 –> 00:08:59,570
cider hits for us it’s a value-added product
coming from Apple Country and so this value-added

00:08:59,570 –> 00:09:04,300
product we have used to start conversations
on your dinner tables and we have used it

00:09:04,300 –> 00:09:10,200
to reach out and talk about organic agriculture
small-scale agricultural economics and we’ve

00:09:10,200 –> 00:09:17,660
also used it to revitalize a small town out
here in uh Far Western Washington where the

00:09:17,660 –> 00:09:22,530
economy used to be based on Dairy and small-scale
dairy found its demise you know 45 50 years

00:09:22,530 –> 00:09:28,060
ago easy and after that you have a bunch of
Farmland that is functionally turned into

00:09:28,060 –> 00:09:32,570
hay bales and that’s about all the economy
that’s going on here and so as we try and

00:09:32,570 –> 00:09:38,170
stimulate an economy we needed a vibrant value-added
product that was going to bring people in

00:09:38,170 –> 00:09:43,089
and and really put a spark in them and give
them something to talk about with their friends

00:09:43,089 –> 00:09:46,250
and their family give them a reason to come
out give them a reason to come back give them

00:09:46,250 –> 00:09:50,420
a reason to think about us while they’re going
through their daily life in the city uh and

00:09:50,420 –> 00:09:56,670
so yeah um is yeah yeah so speaking of your
vibrant product let’s talk a little bit about

00:09:56,670 –> 00:10:03,300
what we have in our glass right now so Farmstead
is uh basically the taste of chinookum Valley

00:10:03,300 –> 00:10:09,860
and uh we live in chimacum and that’s where
our Cider House is and our Orchard and there

00:10:09,860 –> 00:10:15,709
is uh a group of people that are known as
The Chemical People uh and they used to live

00:10:15,709 –> 00:10:21,600
and still do to some extent live in this area
uh and it’s on their land that we Farm a 50-acre

00:10:21,600 –> 00:10:27,149
plot and in that notion as we talk to neighbors
and learn about where we are and who we are

00:10:27,149 –> 00:10:32,630
and um what we know of the land everybody
has apples trees in their yard and so there’s

00:10:32,630 –> 00:10:37,300
a lot of local fruit that’s not being particularly
used Grandma and Grandpa planted uh apple

00:10:37,300 –> 00:10:42,240
trees to make applesauce or juice you know
75 80 years ago and now that fruit just hits

00:10:42,240 –> 00:10:48,130
the ground and it feeds the deer or it’s a
nuisance to mow over and so we collect and

00:10:48,130 –> 00:10:53,890
talk to all the hobbyists and the old homesteads
through about a 50 60 square miles and we’re

00:10:53,890 –> 00:10:56,970
bringing in all of that fruit that we can
get our hands on and we’re putting it together

00:10:56,970 –> 00:11:01,760
in basically a rustic Taste of the valley
and that’s what Farmstead is meant to be it’s

00:11:01,760 –> 00:11:05,940
unfiltered it clarifies pretty well on its
own just sitting in the bottle but there’s

00:11:05,940 –> 00:11:12,370
a haze to it we don’t do a lot it’s a rather
non-interventionalist cider we’re not uh in

00:11:12,370 –> 00:11:17,740
there manipulating with clarifying agents
um we’re not uh throwing Oak staves in to

00:11:17,740 –> 00:11:22,089
build complexity we’re letting the apples
show through um in this case we’re not even

00:11:22,089 –> 00:11:26,750
pitching yeast we’re letting spontaneous wild
yeast that show up on the apples themselves

00:11:26,750 –> 00:11:31,850
uh do the fermentations for us so this batch
of cider is made in three or four separate

00:11:31,850 –> 00:11:35,529
fermentations each year to kind of depending
on the season but you get apples that come

00:11:35,529 –> 00:11:41,620
in uh early on in in late September and we’ll
press those early fruits we’ll let them ferment

00:11:41,620 –> 00:11:46,152
on the side and as they ferment through that
tank kind of comes to conclusion and it’s

00:11:46,152 –> 00:11:49,630
just chilling on the side but apples are still
coming in and so we’ll press the next round

00:11:49,630 –> 00:11:53,960
fill up the next tank let let that produce
but that’s naturally a different blend of

00:11:53,960 –> 00:11:59,290
apples and so as we put all these things together
I think this year uh we counted 72 different

00:11:59,290 –> 00:12:04,360
named varieties of apples that we know for
sure are in this bottle wow that’s amazing

00:12:04,360 –> 00:12:10,660
so this is really kind of more akin to to
wine making in the sense that you know the

00:12:10,660 –> 00:12:15,010
what’s going in there every year changes and
it’s all different things you know and you’re

00:12:15,010 –> 00:12:19,020
very dependent on and the native yeast too
is a kind of akin to kind of what natural

00:12:19,020 –> 00:12:23,160
wine is doing and that’s you know so it’s
nice because I feel like people sometimes

00:12:23,160 –> 00:12:28,630
expect with with all different beverages you
know things that taste the same every year

00:12:28,630 –> 00:12:32,930
right but like you don’t expect that necessary
from winemakers you know from winemakers you

00:12:32,930 –> 00:12:35,680
know you like this wine maker you like what
he makes and it’s going to be different every

00:12:35,680 –> 00:12:39,589
year but you trust it’s going to be good right
and that’s kind of this approach that each

00:12:39,589 –> 00:12:45,620
vintage almost is kind of and will take efforts
to romanticize each vintage so that there’s

00:12:45,620 –> 00:12:50,820
not good years and bad years there’s just
different years um by all means um and then

00:12:50,820 –> 00:12:55,810
uh it also seems sometimes it’s not so much
dependent on the weather uh or or the factors

00:12:55,810 –> 00:13:01,300
of Earth that decide what shows up in this
vintage but it has to do with uh which Old-Timers

00:13:01,300 –> 00:13:05,510
found it in their hearts to call me and tell
me about their apples uh and who showed up

00:13:05,510 –> 00:13:12,081
in the parking lot with you know a 45 uh bins
in the back of their Minivan and those kind

00:13:12,081 –> 00:13:17,170
of things do impact so when there was a woman
who lives near Poulsbo which is about 30 minutes

00:13:17,170 –> 00:13:22,990
south of here uh and she’s really proud of
her akane apples um and they’re these little

00:13:22,990 –> 00:13:27,740
red eating apples they’re delightful to eat
I never thought much of them for cider she

00:13:27,740 –> 00:13:32,389
showed up and she’s like these apples they
are the best and she’s thought so highly of

00:13:32,389 –> 00:13:35,200
them she was like you’ve got to be able to
use them I’ve got way more than I know what

00:13:35,200 –> 00:13:40,430
to do it and for all of those intents and
purposes it’s one of 72 varieties inside this

00:13:40,430 –> 00:13:47,260
glass but from her perspective the value and
the joy of donating fruit into this particular

00:13:47,260 –> 00:13:53,300
vintage and so now we have akane in here and
it has a little bit of red veinage that comes

00:13:53,300 –> 00:13:57,449
through the Flesh and so we get a little bit
deeper color from that fermentation we’re

00:13:57,449 –> 00:14:01,920
building complexity and we’re building a taste
of the land from people who live here that’s

00:14:01,920 –> 00:14:06,860
amazing it’s almost like a terroir of community
you know rather than like a terroir land you

00:14:06,860 –> 00:14:10,610
know whatever whatever that word would be
the circumstances of the weather are compounded

00:14:10,610 –> 00:14:16,640
by the circumstances of the outpouring or
just like the call to action that I think

00:14:16,640 –> 00:14:20,830
is one of the coolest things that Suzanne
and I talk about when we talk about Finn River

00:14:20,830 –> 00:14:27,690
is is your interest in cultivating this um
I guess just curiosity about the land and

00:14:27,690 –> 00:14:33,019
if you have some apple trees on your on your
land that you’re not really sure what’s going

00:14:33,019 –> 00:14:40,490
on there yeah uh you know you guys are a resource
for people that that you know you may be facilitated

00:14:40,490 –> 00:14:45,230
implicating that Curiosity to begin with and
so as a way to bring that to light and like

00:14:45,230 –> 00:14:49,889
this is people can share that now with people
that they know and are friends like these

00:14:49,889 –> 00:14:55,220
are some of my apples are in this it’s very
cool and that happens and I have to clarify

00:14:55,220 –> 00:15:00,389
that we don’t trade cider for apples that
we don’t deliver cash in the parking lot and

00:15:00,389 –> 00:15:05,750
that we build relationships um uh around stewardship
I need to know that these management practices

00:15:05,750 –> 00:15:11,160
from various neighbors and stuff are meeting
at least with wild harvested untended standards

00:15:11,160 –> 00:15:16,310
uh the rest of our product line is uh fully
sourced with organic fruit and organic inputs

00:15:16,310 –> 00:15:23,330
uh and so we we do that homework um and and
in that I feel like we’re building the rebuilding

00:15:23,330 –> 00:15:28,959
maybe the culture of Agriculture uh we’re
we’re proving that there is a viable Network

00:15:28,959 –> 00:15:33,699
and there’s a reason to be productive on what
land you might have or what trees might be

00:15:33,699 –> 00:15:39,779
in your yard uh it’s it’s not just meant to
be mowed over uh and we can also support we

00:15:39,779 –> 00:15:44,820
we talk to tons of people about their orcharding
techniques inevitably a load of people want

00:15:44,820 –> 00:15:50,899
us to come help them prune their trees every
year in the spring which we do not do but

00:15:50,899 –> 00:15:56,490
for that same notion um we are building the
interconnected web of community and we’re

00:15:56,490 –> 00:16:02,630
doing it by putting some value on some apples
some people donate to that end people do donate

00:16:02,630 –> 00:16:06,560
apples into this and we’re a for-profit company
we are trying to make money make payroll all

00:16:06,560 –> 00:16:12,620
that kind of good stuff uh and so the Farmstead
is also a fundraising bottle and we take 10

00:16:12,620 –> 00:16:17,650
cents per uh bottle sold and we compile that
up each vintage and then we donate that to

00:16:17,650 –> 00:16:21,970
a local non-profit uh I think most recently
it’s gone to jumping mouse which is a program

00:16:21,970 –> 00:16:28,270
here in Port Townsend that uh focuses on uh
therapy through play for kids and in the past

00:16:28,270 –> 00:16:32,630
it’s gone to Dove house which is a women’s
crisis shelter uh and then also to the community

00:16:32,630 –> 00:16:38,389
Wellness project that it’s uh pushing for
nutrition in our local uh Public School District

00:16:38,389 –> 00:16:44,620
and changing the way soda machines and food
menus are put together wonderful and so we’re

00:16:44,620 –> 00:16:48,700
taking in uh what we do take in on donations
um we’re flipping that right back around and

00:16:48,700 –> 00:16:52,329
putting it directly into our community at
places that we think matter so there’s the

00:16:52,329 –> 00:16:57,910
value statement right that’s amazing yeah
hey Andrew how did you um how did you get

00:16:57,910 –> 00:17:04,400
into cider making how this yeah what’s your
story yeah how’d this start for you um so

00:17:04,400 –> 00:17:10,689
out of high school I went to culinary school
um and I got trained up as a Cordon Bleu chef

00:17:10,689 –> 00:17:16,860
and so I started my my life uh uh or my adult
working career uh cooking in fancy places

00:17:16,860 –> 00:17:22,140
in La Beverly Hills that kind of notion and
as I transitioned out of that I went to Humboldt

00:17:22,140 –> 00:17:25,870
State uh realizing that I certainly wasn’t
going to work in kitchens for the rest of

00:17:25,870 –> 00:17:30,799
my life and I didn’t see a great future there
and so I made a little transition um called

00:17:30,799 –> 00:17:37,240
College went to college and studied body fungal
ecology organic chemistry uh and spent you

00:17:37,240 –> 00:17:42,890
know 10 years taking more credits than it
was ever necessary to uh to graduate and um

00:17:42,890 –> 00:17:47,020
promptly took all of that information and
went out to Upstate New York and started picking

00:17:47,020 –> 00:17:53,350
fruit for a living um we’re thrilled I’m sure
as my parents pointed out that it qualified

00:17:53,350 –> 00:18:00,360
me as downwardly mobile and you know they’re
into it so I I was uh living out on the east

00:18:00,360 –> 00:18:06,820
coast in Upstate New York and the people I
was introduced to there uh happen to be some

00:18:06,820 –> 00:18:12,710
cider makers that are making like Boutique
exceptional top-tier French style cider with

00:18:12,710 –> 00:18:17,830
really specific apples grown in the Finger
Lakes region of New York uh and you know trained

00:18:17,830 –> 00:18:24,520
by French cider makers and super like creme
de La Creme kind of cider uh and I showed

00:18:24,520 –> 00:18:28,190
up and they’re like you want to pick Jerry’s
I picked cherries I picked apricots then I

00:18:28,190 –> 00:18:32,740
picked peaches and then it was apple season
I picked apples uh and then it was like we

00:18:32,740 –> 00:18:37,860
need to squeeze the apples and then we needed
to bottle the apples uh and then we needed

00:18:37,860 –> 00:18:42,820
to sell them uh and then it turned out that
I had some reasonable skills in uh salesmanship

00:18:42,820 –> 00:18:48,160
and taking them into New York City and so
I spent my early years in cider being a grunt

00:18:48,160 –> 00:18:53,370
on a full a full process farm and then you
know empty that bottle into the Pint glass

00:18:53,370 –> 00:19:02,680
the uh uh so I spent my days uh convincing
New York Chefs in Manhattan Brooklyn in the

00:19:02,680 –> 00:19:08,780
Bronx primarily uh that cider was real that
alcohol could be made from from apples uh

00:19:08,780 –> 00:19:12,720
and that there was space on their menu to
offer diversity to their customer base and

00:19:12,720 –> 00:19:17,230
that this was a legitimate cultural phenomenon
that was occurring in the United States this

00:19:17,230 –> 00:19:24,040
was back maybe 2006-ish uh or so maybe a little
2004. and I regularly spent time at a farmer’s

00:19:24,040 –> 00:19:29,240
market articulating the idea that yes there
was alcohol and no I was not just selling

00:19:29,240 –> 00:19:36,630
juice and since then though um I’ve moved
we came back to the West Coast my wife and

00:19:36,630 –> 00:19:41,950
I uh and yeah you can’t build up that original
Cider House all that much and not tell us

00:19:41,950 –> 00:19:52,700
the name of it sure Eve cidery like uh Adam
and Eve cidering ottoman Ezra um they’re phenomenal

00:19:52,700 –> 00:19:57,530
people they were great mentors my baby was
born on their land uh down by the creek we

00:19:57,530 –> 00:20:02,360
lived in a cabin uh and spent you know the
first two years of her life there uh dipping

00:20:02,360 –> 00:20:07,070
her toes into the creek that runs right through
the yeah helping them plant Orchards and also

00:20:07,070 –> 00:20:12,910
your story is making all of us want to be
you yeah it sounds like a great life story

00:20:12,910 –> 00:20:19,620
right here so far so good I wrote a letter
to all let’s see at the time there were 14

00:20:19,620 –> 00:20:24,330
cider houses in Washington State uh and so
I wrote a cover letter uh and it was like

00:20:24,330 –> 00:20:30,179
yo I’m looking for a job I’m better than a
grunt and I know things about cider and apples

00:20:30,179 –> 00:20:34,750
and I have management skills uh which is a
whole nother tangent that we don’t need to

00:20:34,750 –> 00:20:39,990
get into that but I’m a management Theory
geek as well uh and so in thinking about systems

00:20:39,990 –> 00:20:44,530
and management I applied for a job to every
West Coast Cider House my parents live in

00:20:44,530 –> 00:20:49,900
Olympia Washington uh and we were trying to
get back out to the west and Finn river is

00:20:49,900 –> 00:20:55,320
the only place they call me back wow well
I should say dragon’s head over on Vashon

00:20:55,320 –> 00:21:00,100
Island uh they wrote me back but they had
an eight dollar an hour grunt like entry-level

00:21:00,100 –> 00:21:07,059
job for me uh and this was back you know 2010
eight dollars an hour was legal um in Washington

00:21:07,059 –> 00:21:12,200
it wasn’t it wasn’t terrible uh but it was
not enough to build a family on and that wasn’t

00:21:12,200 –> 00:21:18,539
quite what I was looking for and so we came
out and stayed in a cabin of Christy and Keats

00:21:18,539 –> 00:21:23,429
out here at Finn River uh and I started you
know a week and a half later and we’ve been

00:21:23,429 –> 00:21:29,230
building our lives here ever since super cool
that sounds great so um and their loss all

00:21:29,230 –> 00:21:33,000
the other excited houses that didn’t call
you back no they’re kicking themselves now

00:21:33,000 –> 00:21:38,289
I said uh I’m the vice president of the uh
Northwest cider Association uh volunteering

00:21:38,289 –> 00:21:43,179
on their board uh and have been uh working
my way as an ambassador for the category for

00:21:43,179 –> 00:21:47,750
some time so those folks who may remember
my application initially um they sure see

00:21:47,750 –> 00:21:53,919
a lot of me now uh and I’m helping uh their
boats rise in this tide as well well yeah

00:21:53,919 –> 00:21:59,059
we know Jana over at the Northwest Center
Association very well yeah she’s amazing did

00:21:59,059 –> 00:22:03,080
you know her history with Finn River yeah
yeah I think I knew her back when she worked

00:22:03,080 –> 00:22:07,470
at him actually that’s how I found out about
Finn River I think I met her at cidercon or

00:22:07,470 –> 00:22:11,890
something and that makes great sense with
her and we were like besties immediately and

00:22:11,890 –> 00:22:16,909
then you know I learned about you guys that
way yeah that’s great yep so I want to give

00:22:16,909 –> 00:22:21,130
um our guests a chance to ask some questions
and jump into the conversation and just say

00:22:21,130 –> 00:22:27,559
hi maybe um if you want to unmute yourselves
and say hello and Jay you’re in Washington

00:22:27,559 –> 00:22:33,679
so I don’t know if you’re familiar with this
area up in River anything like this part of

00:22:33,679 –> 00:22:36,970
you know Washington

00:22:36,970 –> 00:22:39,110
I have no idea where I am

00:22:39,110 –> 00:22:48,880
you know I I’ve lived here as long as I happen
I haven’t haven’t been able to really explore

00:22:48,880 –> 00:22:55,980
the way I should um but one thing I have discovered
while I’m out here is that there has been

00:22:55,980 –> 00:23:03,150
a lot of ciders and stuff um and there is
a a cider place just up the street and and

00:23:03,150 –> 00:23:09,490
they do a little Brew uh in there and it’s
all Heavy Metal based um Mead and stuff like

00:23:09,490 –> 00:23:16,230
that yeah yeah and so what’s the name what’s
the name of that place um I knew you were

00:23:16,230 –> 00:23:22,419
gonna ask me that it’s it’s something Nordic
and I can look it up here okay cool Circle

00:23:22,419 –> 00:23:27,799
back well yeah I was about to mention that
heavy metal place in Denver but I agree that

00:23:27,799 –> 00:23:34,365
if I did someone would ask me what the name
of it was yeah I don’t remember either oh

00:23:34,365 –> 00:23:36,281
yeah I remember that place um yeah well from
what I’ve seen in pictures and from what I

00:23:36,281 –> 00:23:41,350
can tell of where Finn river is and what their
property looks like I would highly suggest

00:23:41,350 –> 00:23:47,240
a road trip there because it’s on one of my
very high it looks just idyllic it looks just

00:23:47,240 –> 00:23:53,520
beautiful and yeah I remember visiting Olympia
National Park when I was young and it was

00:23:53,520 –> 00:23:58,970
just like another planet it’s a really remarkable
part of the part of the country almost stepping

00:23:58,970 –> 00:24:08,960
on a banana slug that was actually the size
of a banana oh yeah wow that’s normal um it’s

00:24:08,960 –> 00:24:15,279
wet out here um I mean it rains a lot to have
slugs that big you need a lot of moisture

00:24:15,279 –> 00:24:20,940
uh and and we get it all the time often in
June uh and so yeah everything is incredibly

00:24:20,940 –> 00:24:25,309
green if you’re lacking green come for a visit
um and just breathe in the deepness and the

00:24:25,309 –> 00:24:31,670
aroma of green trees and green grass and the
forests abound um it is pretty glorious out

00:24:31,670 –> 00:24:37,491
this way we’ll have to come visit in the summer
because we live in Arizona now which is the

00:24:37,491 –> 00:24:43,330
exact opposite of all of that especially in
the summer if you want some red and some dirt

00:24:43,330 –> 00:24:47,970
and some dry come on this way see Andrew just
out of curiosity while we’re on this topic

00:24:47,970 –> 00:24:55,240
um given that you know the the temperate rainforest
there on the Olympia Peninsula is as wet as

00:24:55,240 –> 00:25:01,580
it is on the global scale by comparison how
does that influence in your like in your experience

00:25:01,580 –> 00:25:10,361
dealing with the apples that are grown there
to what you saw in New York hmm yeah so we

00:25:10,361 –> 00:25:17,299
still you know being in a uh we’re in a coastal
climate right we’re uh uh surrounded by ocean

00:25:17,299 –> 00:25:21,830
so we’re pretty moderate and yeah we get a
lot of rain but we also have like not too

00:25:21,830 –> 00:25:28,230
hot and not too cold uh so it’s like wet and
cloudy often but we go nine months sometimes

00:25:28,230 –> 00:25:34,029
Without Rain in the summer uh and so it does
end up getting dry but the temperatures don’t

00:25:34,029 –> 00:25:37,580
tend to spike and things along those lines
so and versus like back in New York where

00:25:37,580 –> 00:25:41,150
like every three days you have a thunderstorm
that bothers to actually come across your

00:25:41,150 –> 00:25:45,920
land um whereas versus just seeing the thunderstorms
in the distance but you have rain during the

00:25:45,920 –> 00:25:51,050
summer uh here we’re dry during the summer
uh and we have a really long wet season and

00:25:51,050 –> 00:25:57,120
so sure there’s climactic differences here
in uh uh chimichum we actually parallel um

00:25:57,120 –> 00:26:03,590
uh the Normandy Coast if you look latitude
wise across the way so we’re we’re at this

00:26:03,590 –> 00:26:09,780
exact same maritime climate where uh the English
you know Somerset and in the south of England

00:26:09,780 –> 00:26:14,320
and places uh where cider is known to come
from as well as in Normandy and Brittany on

00:26:14,320 –> 00:26:21,059
that Coastline there you have the same maritime
climate the same kind of uh what a cloud cover

00:26:21,059 –> 00:26:25,730
is really all I’m trying to say um that protects
you and mitigates the climate uh and so this

00:26:25,730 –> 00:26:29,289
is good apple country and it’s different than
on the other side of the Cascade Mountains

00:26:29,289 –> 00:26:35,340
this huge volcanic range um and on the other
side you have Yakima and Wenatchee the Apple

00:26:35,340 –> 00:26:40,679
capitals of the world and and they’re producing
red delicious and Gold Delicious and uh honey

00:26:40,679 –> 00:26:46,620
crisps and that’s totally different than where
I live I live in a place that’s full of lichens

00:26:46,620 –> 00:26:51,680
and little gnarly trees that produce a ton
of apples on their own every year and that’s

00:26:51,680 –> 00:26:56,809
the way the game plays and so I feel like
I live in Apple Country and across the mountains

00:26:56,809 –> 00:27:01,549
they grow apples for commercial purposes with
irrigation and a whole lot of sunshine I live

00:27:01,549 –> 00:27:07,899
where apples want to live um and so uh we
grow small ugly bits of fruit I was going

00:27:07,899 –> 00:27:12,240
to say Eastern Washington can’t be a place
where they grow without irrigation right like

00:27:12,240 –> 00:27:17,070
that just doesn’t make sense no not a lot
not that I know unless you’re in a valley

00:27:17,070 –> 00:27:21,630
you know the Okanagan Valley going up north
uh that stretches up into Canada uh I wouldn’t

00:27:21,630 –> 00:27:28,440
want to be arrogant to be like that’s not
possible sure but um things like this right

00:27:28,440 –> 00:27:33,169
um but yeah a lot of irrigation we irrigate
here too we grow some small trees they need

00:27:33,169 –> 00:27:38,340
some support um we irrigate for probably three
to four months out of the year uh where we’re

00:27:38,340 –> 00:27:43,820
given you know trees a gallon of water a day
something along that line which is not that

00:27:43,820 –> 00:27:50,909
huge except that we have six thousand uh trees
and so um there are some impacts the Jamestown

00:27:50,909 –> 00:27:56,640
Skull Island tribe out here uh on the Olympic
Peninsula they have done quite a bit of climate

00:27:56,640 –> 00:28:01,440
research modeling and so their scientists
the tribal scientists um have produced some

00:28:01,440 –> 00:28:06,660
documents that tell us in the next 10 to 15
years we should expect less snow and more

00:28:06,660 –> 00:28:13,890
rain uh and so warmer Winters with larger
amounts of precipitation um Coming during

00:28:13,890 –> 00:28:20,150
those Winters and so we should expect wetter
uh uh conditions and then longer dry times

00:28:20,150 –> 00:28:24,800
and we’re going to get more of this concept
of a lot of water all at once and then a dry

00:28:24,800 –> 00:28:29,919
period And so we’ve been looking at ways in
our Orchard to mitigate that how can we track

00:28:29,919 –> 00:28:35,010
water in the land how can we trap water in
the root Zone climate resilience for us uh

00:28:35,010 –> 00:28:40,510
has to do with understanding what it is that
we need to support these trees when we have

00:28:40,510 –> 00:28:45,120
a bunch of fluctuation and what we need is
stability and so we’re designing stability

00:28:45,120 –> 00:28:51,640
into the orchard out here that’s big time
yeah that’s super important and you know as

00:28:51,640 –> 00:28:57,240
Mother Nature continues to change I feel like
everywhere across the globe uh farmers are

00:28:57,240 –> 00:29:02,310
going to need to continue to understand how
they can adjust and adapt because yeah you

00:29:02,310 –> 00:29:09,070
know if it snows then the water melts and
goes into the groundwater much more slowly

00:29:09,070 –> 00:29:14,100
if it rains it goes into the rivers and goes
out to the ocean um and that’s just something

00:29:14,100 –> 00:29:20,279
that you can’t really adjust for unless you
have infrastructure in place and are prepared

00:29:20,279 –> 00:29:25,760
for it by having cistern or the water collection
parts of your topography that you can really

00:29:25,760 –> 00:29:31,570
hold it there we looked into a pond for example
that would allow us to irrigate um we use

00:29:31,570 –> 00:29:38,299
something like 5 000 gallons uh per hour to
irrigate our Orchard like the water volumes

00:29:38,299 –> 00:29:44,190
for irrigation are enormous and we’re in a
wet place and we have uh water rights to the

00:29:44,190 –> 00:29:48,309
creek that runs through uh and we’re one of
a few it’s really highly regulated kind of

00:29:48,309 –> 00:29:52,940
space and we have access to this amount of
water we talked about putting in a pond and

00:29:52,940 –> 00:29:57,519
we’re thinking like how big would the pond
need to be to impact our irrigation schedule

00:29:57,519 –> 00:30:02,049
uh and we came up with like three to four
million gallons is the size of the pond we

00:30:02,049 –> 00:30:08,440
would need that would cover like 15 days of
irrigation needs in the middle of summer right

00:30:08,440 –> 00:30:13,100
so we’re not putting in the pond we talked
about um what it might look like to put in

00:30:13,100 –> 00:30:17,169
a wetland or kind of a diversion from the
creek to try and help with some natural habitat

00:30:17,169 –> 00:30:23,370
and let the Earth hold a little bit more water
here a little slower um but in in those kinds

00:30:23,370 –> 00:30:27,060
of Concepts about you know how do we deal
with the heat Dome I don’t know if you all

00:30:27,060 –> 00:30:32,399
remember the heat Dome of two years ago now
it wasn’t this summer but last summer uh it

00:30:32,399 –> 00:30:36,630
destroyed raspberries and black currants uh
across the state it destroyed cherries the

00:30:36,630 –> 00:30:42,250
Washington State Cherry Harvest was just totally
trashed and that was because we had uh in

00:30:42,250 –> 00:30:49,540
the middle of July something like 109 degrees
uh Eastern Washington was up into the 120s

00:30:49,540 –> 00:30:54,419
and that’s like Moses Lake area where a lot
of apples and cherries are grown and so a

00:30:54,419 –> 00:30:59,450
lot of Agriculture got hit by that heat Dome
our soil dried out like crazy so we take that

00:30:59,450 –> 00:31:04,210
and we’re like yo we’ve got to put wood chips
on the ground we need to plant bigger trees

00:31:04,210 –> 00:31:08,840
that Harvest their own water from Deep Roots
and we’ve got to get off irrigation because

00:31:08,840 –> 00:31:14,620
fundamentally uh we need stronger more robust
uh trees that are going to fend for themselves

00:31:14,620 –> 00:31:19,480
and we need some shade and so we planted an
orchard in the midst of our small Orchard

00:31:19,480 –> 00:31:24,250
we planted a big Orchard and so in 30 years
there’s going to be huge trees like that you’ve

00:31:24,250 –> 00:31:28,080
got to hug your arms around kind of trees
those trees are going to be the apple trees

00:31:28,080 –> 00:31:33,639
of Finn River and underneath them you’re going
to have a big Shady Paradise that can withstand

00:31:33,639 –> 00:31:38,210
the heat Dome and conserve some water moisture
levels in the ground and support a variety

00:31:38,210 –> 00:31:45,160
of other Farm operations really digging into
the agriculture here but like you know life

00:31:45,160 –> 00:31:49,840
life feels real out here we’re very much connected
to the Earth uh and and how we choose to play

00:31:49,840 –> 00:31:55,260
the next 20 years seems quite Paramount it’s
interesting you’re just listening to him talk

00:31:55,260 –> 00:31:59,760
about this a little bit is making me think
of that documentary no yeah it was that documentary

00:31:59,760 –> 00:32:03,860
movie the biggest little farm biggest little
farm biggest little have you guys seen this

00:32:03,860 –> 00:32:08,590
documentary biggest little farm it’s it’s
really amazing it’s this couple who basically

00:32:08,590 –> 00:32:12,929
decides they want to go off the grid kind
of and but the way they want to do that is

00:32:12,929 –> 00:32:18,559
to go build their own self-enclosed sustainable
kind of farm where like everything is the

00:32:18,559 –> 00:32:22,910
whole ecosystem is supporting each other like
the bee population is supporting this population

00:32:22,910 –> 00:32:26,380
and right like the right things are killing
the right things and eating the right things

00:32:26,380 –> 00:32:32,490
and then birthing the right like and watching
them do this on even like a small-ish scale

00:32:32,490 –> 00:32:37,730
you know is really quite fascinating to just
understand how ecosystems work and the things

00:32:37,730 –> 00:32:44,761
that we think are bad and critters and annoying
like are so vital to other parts of the role

00:32:44,761 –> 00:32:50,299
like yeah like it’s really it’s I highly recommend
it biggest little farm it’s pretty pretty

00:32:50,299 –> 00:32:55,640
captivating yeah I mean like the beaver Wars
that we fight out here um let me introduce

00:32:55,640 –> 00:33:02,649
a second cider and then I’ll talk about beavers
I just took a nip of this and I was like I

00:33:02,649 –> 00:33:08,240
was like whoa this is exciting because we’ve
had your dry hopped before um but this is

00:33:08,240 –> 00:33:12,779
a newer cider is it is it not the Fresh Off
yeah the fresh shop is just significantly

00:33:12,779 –> 00:33:18,529
smaller batched I think it’s cooler cooler
uh but we don’t we can’t make it year round

00:33:18,529 –> 00:33:23,389
because we only have you can only make it
with fresh Hops and if we made it enough for

00:33:23,389 –> 00:33:27,070
an entire Year’s worth of sales towards the
end of that year you would be drinking old

00:33:27,070 –> 00:33:32,520
cider and that means oxidized Hops and it’s
just not what we want so we make it in a pretty

00:33:32,520 –> 00:33:37,850
small batch uh depends on what the Growers
bring in we have one row of hops in our Orchard

00:33:37,850 –> 00:33:44,100
out there uh instead of trees we planted Hot
Vines and then in the uh you know search for

00:33:44,100 –> 00:33:51,270
fresh hops there’s a fella up in Sequim which
is you know 25 miles west of us and uh he

00:33:51,270 –> 00:33:56,529
put in six different varieties of hops on
a whim because that’s what he’s into kind

00:33:56,529 –> 00:33:59,919
of thing and then he called me one day being
like hey I got all these hops do you guys

00:33:59,919 –> 00:34:03,730
do things with hops right do you want any
uh and that was the beginning of a relationship

00:34:03,730 –> 00:34:08,220
his name’s Carl he generally drives boats
from here to Hawaii and then apparently has

00:34:08,220 –> 00:34:14,200
this hop Farm um which I’ve been to and it’s
great and I don’t understand all the whys

00:34:14,200 –> 00:34:20,669
but nonetheless um I buy hops from him and
in this case it’s a organic Comet and Cascade

00:34:20,669 –> 00:34:25,650
and Chinook I believe are the three varieties
that you taste in there we grew the Cascades

00:34:25,650 –> 00:34:31,669
he grew the Chinook and the comet uh and we’re
talking hours from Harvest to in a tank soaking

00:34:31,669 –> 00:34:36,990
in cider um as soon as they get picked off
and they’re you know they get brought in in

00:34:36,990 –> 00:34:44,290
a tub uh we’re dumping them straight down
um and that is a a direct infusion like of

00:34:44,290 –> 00:34:50,089
the land into the cider Bam Bam Bam and so
fresh hops they’re amazing and alive and it’s

00:34:50,089 –> 00:34:53,970
herbaceous and more potent we put a lot more
hops into the fresh hop than we do into the

00:34:53,970 –> 00:34:59,010
dry hop mostly because we buy all these Hops
and we’re like what are we going to do we’re

00:34:59,010 –> 00:35:04,250
going to make one really dope ass um batch
of cider and we pile it all in uh and we try

00:35:04,250 –> 00:35:07,850
and make something that is just knock your
socks off so if you’re in the Hops this is

00:35:07,850 –> 00:35:13,900
a bone dry cider with a whole big pile of
local Hops uh dumped in they sit for about

00:35:13,900 –> 00:35:20,930
a day a day and a half and then we’re pulling
those hops out um

00:35:20,930 –> 00:35:24,140
when I have a quiet moment I’ll try and load
a picture into the chat which I believe I

00:35:24,140 –> 00:35:28,680
can do of what our tanks look like when they’re
full of hops but it’s a kind of a mesmerizing

00:35:28,680 –> 00:35:34,880
field of green um and it’s beautiful yeah
that sounds great this smells like a mesmerizing

00:35:34,880 –> 00:35:41,290
sea of green like it even has like a little
bit of greenish Hue to it yeah pushing it

00:35:41,290 –> 00:35:46,710
right yeah it’s really and it’s always so
it’s fun I I really love hop ciders there’s

00:35:46,710 –> 00:35:50,400
to be fair there’s a lot of bad hopsiders
out there so if you’ve tried hop cider I feel

00:35:50,400 –> 00:35:55,109
like it’s a very it’s an art a little bit
like how to bring hops to life in cider and

00:35:55,109 –> 00:35:59,880
and sometimes it just goes goes down and this
is beautiful and your dry hop cider is beautiful

00:35:59,880 –> 00:36:04,510
as well but I like hop cider specifically
because I do think it’s a way to get beer

00:36:04,510 –> 00:36:08,300
drinkers who have just like for whatever reason
written off-site or completely and said they’re

00:36:08,300 –> 00:36:13,400
not cider people to at least be curious enough
to try and then once they get in like that’s

00:36:13,400 –> 00:36:18,690
where you can start to go from there you know
and I really enjoy that um that’s also how

00:36:18,690 –> 00:36:24,540
I talk about barely gin you know get barrel-aged
Gin is the way to get whiskey drinkers into

00:36:24,540 –> 00:36:30,440
gin kind of thing you know those kind of transition
certain distance what do they call those Gateway

00:36:30,440 –> 00:36:36,260
gateways gateway drugs that’s what they told
us in math yeah all those things you didn’t

00:36:36,260 –> 00:36:42,339
know about until you took the Dare program
yes yeah exactly I uh uh in Ballard there’s

00:36:42,339 –> 00:36:48,441
a company called big gin um maybe they’re
called captive Spirits Distillery uh but uh

00:36:48,441 –> 00:36:53,510
but they make a product called Big gin uh
and their head distiller Alex uh has come

00:36:53,510 –> 00:36:57,790
over to visit a few times and I just picked
up a few of those barrels and I have uh some

00:36:57,790 –> 00:37:03,450
peat smoked barrels like which you would make
Scotch with I would imagine um but he was

00:37:03,450 –> 00:37:08,360
making peat smoked gin or Barrel aged peat
gin and then he handed me those barrels and

00:37:08,360 –> 00:37:12,830
I have two of those and we’re now filling
them with cranberry juice and Perry uh and

00:37:12,830 –> 00:37:19,460
so we’re gonna have some peat smoked Barrel
aged scotch-like cranberry gin kind of uh

00:37:19,460 –> 00:37:25,859
and that is a collaboration we won’t see until
the fall as it comes through but a bit by

00:37:25,859 –> 00:37:30,830
bit working into that gin because I do think
it’s a Gateway and people like Oh I like that

00:37:30,830 –> 00:37:35,650
Jen I like I like that Mezcal thing what’d
you do um and so the crossover collaborations

00:37:35,650 –> 00:37:41,810
also lead to a lot of that kind of Gateway
engagement for sure Andrew how do we get on

00:37:41,810 –> 00:37:49,021
your your tasters list I’m like how do I get
a bottle of that

00:37:49,021 –> 00:37:53,400
that’s the fun thing about Fin River too is
they have a very wide portfolio um and honestly

00:37:53,400 –> 00:37:57,850
I I would say a lot of times when I find winemakers
in other places that make kind of everything

00:37:57,850 –> 00:38:02,090
under the sun I’m honestly not normally a
fan of that because I feel like they don’t

00:38:02,090 –> 00:38:06,450
make everything under the sun very well um
and I kind of like it when people focus in

00:38:06,450 –> 00:38:10,849
on like I’m good at this but Finn river is
an exception to that rule because every cider

00:38:10,849 –> 00:38:15,381
of theirs I’ve tasted is delicious and they
do a really a lot of these classic traditional

00:38:15,381 –> 00:38:20,800
ciders but then they do these fruit infused
ciders and Botanical ciders and so they have

00:38:20,800 –> 00:38:25,060
different like categories of ciders and they’re
all just uniquely different just to give you

00:38:25,060 –> 00:38:30,630
an idea and correct me if I’m wrong Andrew
year in year out it’s somewhere in the neighborhood

00:38:30,630 –> 00:38:41,040
of 50 distinct at least that are for sale
yeah okay um I think we have 25 maybe 30 standard

00:38:41,040 –> 00:38:47,000
skus and then there’s one offs that kind of
populate in there for sure people keep bringing

00:38:47,000 –> 00:38:52,079
me these weird fruits uh and you know like
what do you do when someone walks in with

00:38:52,079 –> 00:39:00,890
like kiwis and golden currants and uh uh or
the Quince or yeah I mean or the funky apples

00:39:00,890 –> 00:39:06,010
that show up and this one fella who lives
over by Anderson Lake he shows up and he has

00:39:06,010 –> 00:39:11,830
egremont russet apples and like I don’t know
why anyone would plant these trees or particularly

00:39:11,830 –> 00:39:15,920
grow these apples they’re a little bit mealy
they’re kind of dry and Cakey and he shows

00:39:15,920 –> 00:39:19,490
up and he’s got like a truckload of them like
he’s been intentionally growing these things

00:39:19,490 –> 00:39:25,200
for years and he’s like I think you’re gonna
like these yes but what have you been doing

00:39:25,200 –> 00:39:30,440
before this like why um and and what in the
world like he doesn’t even make cider he’s

00:39:30,440 –> 00:39:35,240
not he doesn’t even drink alcohol and so he’s
growing these obscure apples for his from

00:39:35,240 –> 00:39:41,250
what I can tell No Good Reason um until he
met me fat squirrels yeah very happy squirrels

00:39:41,250 –> 00:39:46,329
like a pig farm or something yeah right and
I mean so so then I get those apples and we’re

00:39:46,329 –> 00:39:49,180
like well what are we gonna do we’re gonna
make something special we’re gonna make something

00:39:49,180 –> 00:39:53,260
that uh no one’s ever had before and we’re
never gonna make it again because he passed

00:39:53,260 –> 00:39:57,470
and the people who bought his land cut his
trees down um and so in terms of the number

00:39:57,470 –> 00:40:02,600
of skus there are Joys and there are tragedies
and we make things because the opportunity

00:40:02,600 –> 00:40:07,620
shows up I would like to think that at the
price point that we’re at with or organic

00:40:07,620 –> 00:40:13,470
standards salmon safe certified um the values
commentary that Finn River brings to the table

00:40:13,470 –> 00:40:18,430
um I get it we are one of the most expensive
ciders on the market by all means and one

00:40:18,430 –> 00:40:22,390
of the reasons that we’re most expensive is
because we deal honestly with our neighbors

00:40:22,390 –> 00:40:27,670
um and then on another level uh we put creativity
and Excellence into what we make and so I

00:40:27,670 –> 00:40:30,930
would hope that we’re not going to put we
might put out something that’s weird and might

00:40:30,930 –> 00:40:36,859
not be the the right taste for you but it’s
the right taste for somebody and even if it

00:40:36,859 –> 00:40:44,820
tastes bad it’s it’s well made bad we put
our diligence into it and so hopefully you

00:40:44,820 –> 00:40:50,210
might not like it but this is made exactly
how it should have been made sure and we actually

00:40:50,210 –> 00:40:54,950
do talk about that quite a bit with in these
sessions and in other classes that we do about

00:40:54,950 –> 00:41:00,970
being able to differentiate between is this
a well-made product versus do I like it is

00:41:00,970 –> 00:41:04,670
really what you want to Aspire to you know
like you might take a sip of something and

00:41:04,670 –> 00:41:08,859
be like whoa that’s not for me at all but
that doesn’t mean you have to say that’s a

00:41:08,859 –> 00:41:13,140
horrible wine like that’s a very different
statement right like instead of you always

00:41:13,140 –> 00:41:17,359
feel like you know it might not be for you
but someone does like it out there palettes

00:41:17,359 –> 00:41:22,099
pallets are wide in variable and you know
and while Andrew says they’re one of the most

00:41:22,099 –> 00:41:26,800
expensive ciders out there I actually do find
this to be very reasonable um price point

00:41:26,800 –> 00:41:32,440
for some of the other ciders that you know
are out there The Cider is a little bit more

00:41:32,440 –> 00:41:37,849
expensive yeah for sure and you know the thing
I do love also about Finn river is that they

00:41:37,849 –> 00:41:42,630
ship all over the country um so this isn’t
you know and we try as best we can with Sip

00:41:42,630 –> 00:41:47,319
Scout we try to only bring you things that
you would never maybe find out about otherwise

00:41:47,319 –> 00:41:51,940
you know on your own but you can get more
of it when we’re done here because otherwise

00:41:51,940 –> 00:41:54,950
it’s such a tease to let you taste it once
and you fall in love with it and you can’t

00:41:54,950 –> 00:41:59,390
get anymore just kidding um but yeah but they
ship all over and so I really encourage you

00:41:59,390 –> 00:42:03,650
to go to Finn River’s website and I’ll throw
it in the chat in a second and just look around

00:42:03,650 –> 00:42:07,369
in their shop you just choose the state you
live in look around the shop and see because

00:42:07,369 –> 00:42:11,280
there’s some fun flavors there’s some fun
things that you won’t see anywhere else that

00:42:11,280 –> 00:42:17,920
you just might be like wow that’s super interesting
um also I feel like a fun gift as well I got

00:42:17,920 –> 00:42:23,309
mad stories um we’re a verbose company we
tell stories with our hops we tell stories

00:42:23,309 –> 00:42:30,200
with uh uh the variety of ciders that we put
to and I don’t mean to rush it um but should

00:42:30,200 –> 00:42:35,270
I talk about sours and talk about them next
or should we banter about other stories I

00:42:35,270 –> 00:42:40,030
got I got I got other stories I just want
to know where feeling on timelines and like

00:42:40,030 –> 00:42:44,890
that kind of thing yeah you maybe give us
one more story and then we can kind of jump

00:42:44,890 –> 00:42:49,099
into the third and maybe the story can be
uh adjacent to what I was going to suggest

00:42:49,099 –> 00:42:54,579
as you bring sours into this mix because um
I recall the last time we were with you and

00:42:54,579 –> 00:43:00,240
talking ciders um you had a pretty interesting
kind of delineation mentally perhaps for yourself

00:43:00,240 –> 00:43:05,690
or perhaps to share with consumers about like
the approach of looking at The Farmstead uh

00:43:05,690 –> 00:43:10,370
this is apples and this is quintessential
apples and you know we’re really trying to

00:43:10,370 –> 00:43:16,271
show off apples and and this sense of place
as much as we can as a closely related to

00:43:16,271 –> 00:43:22,460
the concept of Star Wars you like to have
that and then the other half of your portfolio

00:43:22,460 –> 00:43:26,559
because I feel like there’s probably far more
of a Botanical and the sour and the Hop the

00:43:26,559 –> 00:43:32,730
ones that have the adjuncts as being something
that is perhaps your uh blank canvas to play

00:43:32,730 –> 00:43:40,810
around with and oh yeah uh and kind of talk
about uh the the approach to those two sides

00:43:40,810 –> 00:43:46,310
from historically where the delineation in
our culture was which is beer drinkers and

00:43:46,310 –> 00:43:51,740
wine drinkers and how you bring both of them
into the fold at Finn River by having something

00:43:51,740 –> 00:43:59,090
that is true to the the primary ingredient
form of apples apples in in The Farmstead

00:43:59,090 –> 00:44:05,100
and the others in that uh you know so there’s
a story that like kind of shaped on the spot

00:44:05,100 –> 00:44:10,800
there I got this I love that I love that concept
and so I’d love to know more about like the

00:44:10,800 –> 00:44:14,990
origin of that for you if there was a story
like traditional contemporary a little bit

00:44:14,990 –> 00:44:20,610
Yeah Yeah primarily speaking it’s all about
dogs and cookies um unless those are actually

00:44:20,610 –> 00:44:29,210
just Ritz crackers and peanut butter that
are happening yeah I’m talking about you

00:44:29,210 –> 00:44:36,660
um you’re after my own heart the uh I think
the gameplay that you’re getting out there

00:44:36,660 –> 00:44:43,730
Evan um there are many old school traditions
for cider making uh they’re primarily French

00:44:43,730 –> 00:44:49,541
and English and and Spanish and there’s some
German but what it comes down to is on some

00:44:49,541 –> 00:44:56,010
level like cider is a little bit Punk a little
bit punk rock uh it’s a little bit DIY uh

00:44:56,010 –> 00:45:03,030
it has the ability to not take the same infrastructure
that making beer does uh although I’m a reasonably

00:45:03,030 –> 00:45:10,160
Avid home beer maker uh but also uh we don’t
have the pretense that wine brings to the

00:45:10,160 –> 00:45:16,200
table and we haven’t as a cider culture for
300 years cider has been a beverage of of

00:45:16,200 –> 00:45:23,950
the Campesino of the farm worker uh cider
is uh the the beverage that keeps your children

00:45:23,950 –> 00:45:29,059
alive because it doesn’t have uh doesn’t bring
dysentery um cider has a lot of history of

00:45:29,059 –> 00:45:33,430
being a community beverage and so yeah we’re
building we’re standing on those kinds of

00:45:33,430 –> 00:45:40,450
shoulders for sure and at the same time there’s
an idea wanting to elevate I want to make

00:45:40,450 –> 00:45:47,540
a 750 ml bottle of cider that pours like wine
that that blows sommeliers off their chairs

00:45:47,540 –> 00:45:54,730
uh I want to show you the complexity of notes
of leather and spice and the the flavor of

00:45:54,730 –> 00:46:01,740
the clay-based soils that I grow in here in
chimacum and at the same time I also want

00:46:01,740 –> 00:46:08,030
to engage and be this is hard for me to say
out loud at least a little bit connected to

00:46:08,030 –> 00:46:16,280
like tailgate parties um like I for one I’m
a soccer player and for for two uh I’m in

00:46:16,280 –> 00:46:22,359
a premium organic cider uh and and we we don’t
hit that tailgate Market exactly but bear

00:46:22,359 –> 00:46:27,559
with me on the stretch there um I want people
to drink cider and I want it to be delicious

00:46:27,559 –> 00:46:32,540
uh I don’t want to like exclude folks from
the category because I’m making something

00:46:32,540 –> 00:46:40,690
so austere uh or so pretentious that that
is unreachable and so we have that freedom

00:46:40,690 –> 00:46:45,580
Insider because the category is somewhat undefined
in the United States uh we don’t have the

00:46:45,580 –> 00:46:51,670
rules like beer has where all these Style
Guidelines um that make a Bach or a half or

00:46:51,670 –> 00:46:58,770
a brown ale we don’t have um I know I feel
like that’s kind of debated within the cider

00:46:58,770 –> 00:47:02,520
industry like there’s a lot of people who
are really pushing hard for like defining

00:47:02,520 –> 00:47:07,430
what dry means defining what you know and
defining like modern versus traditional do

00:47:07,430 –> 00:47:15,070
you think that’s important like what’s your
thought I I think that uh having clear definitions

00:47:15,070 –> 00:47:20,470
for Consumer communication feels really important
like people need to understand what the product

00:47:20,470 –> 00:47:27,099
themselves but uh I think pushing for those
definitions um are also primarily Notions

00:47:27,099 –> 00:47:35,040
of ego within the maker Community uh you know
like whether it’s a Bach or a half or a Pilsner

00:47:35,040 –> 00:47:39,220
doesn’t really replace the idea about whether
it’s good or whether I like it right and those

00:47:39,220 –> 00:47:42,619
are different questions like does it hit the
Style Guidelines and does the the does the

00:47:42,619 –> 00:47:47,829
person enjoy it and so I think yes we want
some definition we could use some clarity

00:47:47,829 –> 00:47:53,320
so that we can all compare each other to ourselves
um kind of thing and that will probably lead

00:47:53,320 –> 00:47:59,700
to more connoisseurship and uh an elevation
of the categories yeah that seems beneficial

00:47:59,700 –> 00:48:04,359
but on another level like it’s also just important
to ignore the the categories and make sure

00:48:04,359 –> 00:48:08,360
that you’re hitting the the Yum Factor the
deliciousness Factor because people need to

00:48:08,360 –> 00:48:15,760
enjoy it and so if the cat I wouldn’t take
category definition at the expense of consumer

00:48:15,760 –> 00:48:21,619
enjoyment um and so those are they’re they’re
not they’re they’re related but but I want

00:48:21,619 –> 00:48:28,569
I want both uh uh fundamentally yeah equally
like you know in in the south of France um

00:48:28,569 –> 00:48:33,980
or sorry in the in the north of France um
if you don’t have the right 10 apples you

00:48:33,980 –> 00:48:39,730
can’t call it Normandy style cider appellation
of control right uh we don’t have that going

00:48:39,730 –> 00:48:43,559
on here in the United States and we probably
won’t I don’t hear a lot of people pushing

00:48:43,559 –> 00:48:49,049
for that we also don’t really talk about terroir
all that often Insider uh because very few

00:48:49,049 –> 00:48:53,040
people are growing the same varieties of apples
in different places so you’re not tasting

00:48:53,040 –> 00:48:58,600
the Earth you’re tasting a different blend
uh and so there’s some really uh fun projects

00:48:58,600 –> 00:49:04,290
going on between cideries that are all growing
Kingston blacks or all growing golden russets

00:49:04,290 –> 00:49:09,599
and uh you know we put out three different
Kingston blacks last year uh one from Wenatchee

00:49:09,599 –> 00:49:14,440
one from the Olympic Peninsula and one from
the Northwest side of the Olympic Peninsula

00:49:14,440 –> 00:49:19,170
uh and so we had three different regions all
growing the same apples and we let them each

00:49:19,170 –> 00:49:23,650
ferment individually and tried to showcase
the same Apple from three different places

00:49:23,650 –> 00:49:29,680
the fermentations tasted totally different
but why was that the Earth was that the native

00:49:29,680 –> 00:49:33,980
yeast was that the fact that they came in
two different two months apart and they fermented

00:49:33,980 –> 00:49:38,660
differently on our side like there’s a number
of variables to control from low data points

00:49:38,660 –> 00:49:44,920
but interest and Intrigue and so in that kind
of space I don’t know that I think it’s important

00:49:44,920 –> 00:49:51,390
but I think we’re going there anyways um and
and cider makers take their their craft seriously

00:49:51,390 –> 00:49:55,270
and they want parameters and they want to
know that they’re hitting a mark and then

00:49:55,270 –> 00:50:00,210
the marketers the people who sell the cider
and and speak to the customers they also need

00:50:00,210 –> 00:50:04,290
parameters they need to be able to talk about
dry and sweet in a way that customers trust

00:50:04,290 –> 00:50:08,770
and believe they need to be able to create
that trust relationship so again that’s the

00:50:08,770 –> 00:50:13,119
most harmful one I think is the dry and sweet
that’s the one I feel I really wish they would

00:50:13,119 –> 00:50:17,480
regulate kind of because you know you put
dry Cider on something and it’s not dry at

00:50:17,480 –> 00:50:22,230
all and then people are like totally turned
off you know and so it really from a marketing

00:50:22,230 –> 00:50:26,380
perspective I feel like that’s one of the
most harmful ones that’s not regulated yeah

00:50:26,380 –> 00:50:31,860
that’s challenging yeah Jay to the silliness
that I’m spewing at the moment um the idea

00:50:31,860 –> 00:50:36,880
of tasting the Earth is that terroir is a
com a term that talks about tasting uh of

00:50:36,880 –> 00:50:41,690
the place and generally in grapes that refers
to tasting of like the qualities of the soil

00:50:41,690 –> 00:50:47,599
that the grapes were grown in um versus tasting
the blend meaning the blend of apples that

00:50:47,599 –> 00:50:51,210
have come together and so are you just tasting
the fruit and they’re a little bit there’s

00:50:51,210 –> 00:50:55,040
differences between the physical thing that
you’re holding in your hand or are you tasting

00:50:55,040 –> 00:50:59,280
the differences between the earth that the
roots were touching and that’s what I was

00:50:59,280 –> 00:51:04,270
trying to allude to in that particular statement
are you tasting the Earth or are you tasting

00:51:04,270 –> 00:51:09,930
the apples and the difference in the fruit
terroir is not supposed to reference necessarily

00:51:09,930 –> 00:51:15,520
the difference in growing conditions like
you irrigated your apples and I didn’t irrigate

00:51:15,520 –> 00:51:21,190
mine you’ll be able to taste that in the cider
is that the definition of the word terroir

00:51:21,190 –> 00:51:28,240
in the wine concept no and so it’s a little
yeah it takes some metaphors to get through

00:51:28,240 –> 00:51:33,170
all of that I think although to be fair I
guess I would like if you’re irrigating your

00:51:33,170 –> 00:51:38,859
roots aren’t having to go as deep and work
as hard so they’re likely not getting as much

00:51:38,859 –> 00:51:43,930
like pulling in as much of the minerality
or the the things from the soil they might

00:51:43,930 –> 00:51:47,480
be only going through like yeah three feet
of soil because they’re growing up where the

00:51:47,480 –> 00:51:51,780
water comes from the irrigation as opposed
to 10 feet of soil and seeing three different

00:51:51,780 –> 00:51:57,330
stratas that have a totally different content
of minerals and nutrients and and that’s I

00:51:57,330 –> 00:52:02,589
think why with old world they talk about terroir
so much more because they’re irrigating as

00:52:02,589 –> 00:52:06,849
much and here in the United States even in
the wine world I would argue we don’t really

00:52:06,849 –> 00:52:11,050
talk about Terror all that much we use the
word sure you know but we don’t talk about

00:52:11,050 –> 00:52:15,160
it in the way that like they do in Europe
you know and I think that’s your irrigation

00:52:15,160 –> 00:52:20,180
related it’s adjacent but it’s not because
the vast majority like not only is irrigation

00:52:20,180 –> 00:52:27,670
not common it’s actually illegal forbidden
a lot of places at least for wine um and maybe

00:52:27,670 –> 00:52:33,320
in maybe inside your aocs too you know I mean
maybe you know they got them in France um

00:52:33,320 –> 00:52:38,320
and you see a little bit of that pushing in
England um I I doubt you’ll see it in the

00:52:38,320 –> 00:52:42,740
United States looking at what the American
Insider Association is bringing to the table

00:52:42,740 –> 00:52:48,619
they’re looking for a big intense solution
uh does you know I we work to Brand Pacific

00:52:48,619 –> 00:52:54,420
Northwest cider uh relative to Michigan or
Midwestern cider up there in the north the

00:52:54,420 –> 00:53:00,780
other Apple versus Finger Lakes cider and
uh the northeastern world uh and at best we

00:53:00,780 –> 00:53:06,150
have consensus that um we all have a bunch
of dessert fruit and they grow a lot of Macintosh

00:53:06,150 –> 00:53:09,970
over here and there’s different apples that
go into different places uh they make more

00:53:09,970 –> 00:53:15,670
ice wine the further north you get that all
makes sense um but stylistic choices are different

00:53:15,670 –> 00:53:19,240
than whether you’re tasting the Earth we’re
not all growing the same fruit and so the

00:53:19,240 –> 00:53:25,080
comparison of place-based compare or like
like if we were all growing uh Cabernet you

00:53:25,080 –> 00:53:29,609
would compare the cabernets across and I’m
gonna say it and I was gonna try not to say

00:53:29,609 –> 00:53:35,940
it but you know comparing apples and oranges
um there’s just different stuff here uh and

00:53:35,940 –> 00:53:40,030
so if you’re not comparing across the board
then the comparison isn’t doesn’t feel like

00:53:40,030 –> 00:53:43,880
you’re actually talking about the Earth but
you are talking about the stylistic choices

00:53:43,880 –> 00:53:48,589
of the fermenter or the farm or something
along those lines which is similar but also

00:53:48,589 –> 00:53:54,280
not the same getting a little snooty and I
try not to get into the snooty too much and

00:53:54,280 –> 00:53:59,390
it’s hard too because like geographically
speaking the the places where grapes are I’m

00:53:59,390 –> 00:54:06,740
sorry where apples are being grown in Europe
oranges yeah oranges in the UK and in France

00:54:06,740 –> 00:54:13,010
and in Germany collectively all of those areas
combined are like half of the entire United

00:54:13,010 –> 00:54:17,589
States and we’re growing them all over the
United States and so unless we were growing

00:54:17,589 –> 00:54:24,150
the same apples uh that France was growing
in Normandy and Brittany in Washington and

00:54:24,150 –> 00:54:28,109
that was the only place you were growing those
apples in the United States it doesn’t really

00:54:28,109 –> 00:54:34,720
make sense to draw comparisons to you know
European examples of those apples and the

00:54:34,720 –> 00:54:40,180
same would go for you know growing the UK
apples in the Finger Lakes and you know the

00:54:40,180 –> 00:54:45,359
Spanish apples in Michigan it doesn’t really
make sense to draw comparisons across the

00:54:45,359 –> 00:54:50,900
thing which doesn’t make sense compare French
uh ciders to Spanish ciders yeah yeah for

00:54:50,900 –> 00:54:56,150
sure um I know he took us on a tangent there
for a second sorry for the interruption but

00:54:56,150 –> 00:54:59,690
while we’re while we’re waking our way back
from the tangent maybe we can pause for a

00:54:59,690 –> 00:55:06,980
second to introduce our third cider here yeah
uh so home and stone uh poem fruit is the

00:55:06,980 –> 00:55:14,220
uh Botanical term to refer to apples and pears
primarily uh poems is a Botanical term uh

00:55:14,220 –> 00:55:19,980
and then stone fruit uh referencing the peaches
the nectarines the apricots the plums uh and

00:55:19,980 –> 00:55:26,180
this one in in particular uh focuses on apricots
uh because that’s what came in from the grower

00:55:26,180 –> 00:55:31,460
that I work with and I tend to buy all of
their ugly fruit and sometimes their ugly

00:55:31,460 –> 00:55:36,839
fruit is cherries sometimes it’s peaches sometimes
it’s apricots but I give them a viable market

00:55:36,839 –> 00:55:43,450
for the fruit that is uh not gonna make it
to Market or so so I give them a viable Financial

00:55:43,450 –> 00:55:50,260
alternative to what won’t make it to Market
um and and that secondary uh economic cycle

00:55:50,260 –> 00:55:55,270
is like like the heart and soul of Twin River
sourcing and apples it’s not that we’re buying

00:55:55,270 –> 00:56:00,630
waste fruit but we’re we’re giving a market
and a viable pathway for all the things that

00:56:00,630 –> 00:56:06,470
the consumers won’t buy in the grocery store
uh and to me I call that ugly fruit um but

00:56:06,470 –> 00:56:11,589
uh to others you know it’s not that it’s bruised
and beaten and terrible these are things that

00:56:11,589 –> 00:56:16,030
have very slight blemishes that the American
Consumer won’t pick up in the grocery store

00:56:16,030 –> 00:56:20,160
because fundamentally when you go to buy a
tomato you don’t want to pick up a tomato

00:56:20,160 –> 00:56:23,652
that already has a bruise or a wound or a
little bit of mold growing on the top you’re

00:56:23,652 –> 00:56:29,380
going to pick the perfect tomato so what happens
to all those other cast aside Tomatoes right

00:56:29,380 –> 00:56:35,559
um yeah they’re in your house yet

00:56:35,559 –> 00:56:40,750
and so um you know I I often look for the
the discount produce bin by all means and

00:56:40,750 –> 00:56:45,180
I also do that at Finn River um and so I talk
to the farmers ahead of time and I get field

00:56:45,180 –> 00:56:52,220
run cherries uh in this case I get um apricots
that uh are picked and and they process and

00:56:52,220 –> 00:56:57,580
freeze them for me uh and so everything that
it doesn’t go to their Fresh Markets uh gets

00:56:57,580 –> 00:57:01,130
dropped into a bucket and Frozen and then
I get to buy it and I have it year round and

00:57:01,130 –> 00:57:06,460
so I can make things at different times the
poem and Stone also has like a fermentation

00:57:06,460 –> 00:57:12,150
history that is worth a little discussion
um we uh I could just tell you when I took

00:57:12,150 –> 00:57:17,140
a well when I took up my first sip of it you
were you were talking so I whispered under

00:57:17,140 –> 00:57:25,510
my breath to Evan like oh man it’s it’s really
like this is super fun I mean all three of

00:57:25,510 –> 00:57:29,130
them were I haven’t we haven’t talked about
what we thought about all of them we can talk

00:57:29,130 –> 00:57:33,180
about that but the color on this is just beautiful
and they always say you eat with your eyes

00:57:33,180 –> 00:57:40,329
first and the texture is a little bit like
richer and like heavier feeling and it just

00:57:40,329 –> 00:57:44,250
it’s really well balanced like and I’m I’m
I like sour things but I don’t like them to

00:57:44,250 –> 00:57:48,280
be overly sour and so this is really just
beautifully balanced remarkable so when we’re

00:57:48,280 –> 00:57:53,700
talking about Sour we’re not talking about
tart or acid levels particularly we’re talking

00:57:53,700 –> 00:57:59,109
about uh alternative fermentation organisms
and so while the other two ciders we’ve tried

00:57:59,109 –> 00:58:07,359
tonight we ferment with a pretty normal fermentation
yeast a saccharomyces blend and uh we we get

00:58:07,359 –> 00:58:12,650
wine we get alcohol as they consume the sugar
and all of that’s normal normal for sours

00:58:12,650 –> 00:58:19,069
uh there’s a beer tradition in which you let
a variety of bacteria dominates your fermentation

00:58:19,069 –> 00:58:23,660
and multiple organisms can make alcohol yeast
happens to be the best at it and the most

00:58:23,660 –> 00:58:29,400
consistent so when you enter into the sour
world you enter into the wildness of uncontrolled

00:58:29,400 –> 00:58:37,660
bacteria real fermentation and it’s glorious
it’s not kombucha just pointing that up um

00:58:37,660 –> 00:58:45,900
in the uh idea here so we pitch pitch meaning
I add to the cider uh organisms that are traditionally

00:58:45,900 –> 00:58:52,079
considered flaws and and dangerous to have
in your wine or in your beer and we do it

00:58:52,079 –> 00:58:58,099
on purpose and so it’s controlled Mayhem it’s
um it’s playing with things that are terrible

00:58:58,099 –> 00:59:03,339
in order to make them so terrible that they’re
good again uh and my wife told me to stop

00:59:03,339 –> 00:59:08,840
making the the Alpha and Omega Christian thing
um and I’m gonna do it anyways but it’s like

00:59:08,840 –> 00:59:12,490
these things are so bad they’re good they
come around again they are the alpha and the

00:59:12,490 –> 00:59:16,609
Omega which is a quote and that’s where it
gets into the thing that she tells me not

00:59:16,609 –> 00:59:21,190
to bring up because it’s not that funny in
things along those lines um but like so bad

00:59:21,190 –> 00:59:26,040
it’s good doesn’t give the same notion as
like complete circle you start off with something

00:59:26,040 –> 00:59:31,740
like pretendomyces which is an organism that
destroys red wine uh uh and makes it unpalatable

00:59:31,740 –> 00:59:36,579
and you take it as a threshold level you ferment
it you get it over an older and older and

00:59:36,579 –> 00:59:40,710
stronger and stronger and then all of a sudden
it comes back into a world where people are

00:59:40,710 –> 00:59:48,030
like ooh that’s pretty good um that’s that’s
so nasty it’s great uh kind of notion um so

00:59:48,030 –> 00:59:52,609
that’s the realm of sour beers um they’re
so flawed that they’re delightful uh interesting

00:59:52,609 –> 00:59:59,270
because Evan as a trained sommelier he he
has historically had an issue with sour beers

00:59:59,270 –> 01:00:05,660
because he’s like Brett beers natural wine
and a lot of sour ciders and sour beers yeah

01:00:05,660 –> 01:00:10,890
he’s like I was taught that this was a flaw
kind of but in another context you know yeah

01:00:10,890 –> 01:00:16,640
but now I like the smell of Stilton in my
Africa yeah I mean genetic predispositions

01:00:16,640 –> 01:00:22,430
we all taste things differently as well um
and so what is a flaw and what is that threshold

01:00:22,430 –> 01:00:27,810
for one is not necessarily going to be a threshold
for another uh and so there’s definitely variation

01:00:27,810 –> 01:00:33,980
to play with but in the notion here of cider
so we are presenting flaw organisms into the

01:00:33,980 –> 01:00:39,270
cider to get a fermentation they don’t do
a lot relative to flawed red wine or sour

01:00:39,270 –> 01:00:44,680
beers uh are sugars that we present in the
fruit are really easy to ferment they don’t

01:00:44,680 –> 01:00:49,869
cause the crazy crazy flavors that you get
in sour beers and they don’t cause the same

01:00:49,869 –> 01:00:54,381
detriment that you see in Barrel aged old
red wine and so we’re not burning down the

01:00:54,381 –> 01:01:01,780
cidery because we have an infestation of retinoises
I I buy the cultures in little vials and I

01:01:01,780 –> 01:01:07,020
add them intentionally and we don’t worry
about sanitizing afterwards it’s it’s never

01:01:07,020 –> 01:01:13,569
been an issue there’s not enough here to really
engage in the same notion so we have some

01:01:13,569 –> 01:01:19,270
leeway in the world of sour or alternative
fermentation organisms that wine and beer

01:01:19,270 –> 01:01:25,430
don’t have um and so I play with that we push
it and we push the limits I try not to experiment

01:01:25,430 –> 01:01:30,710
on my customers uh we we experiment in-house
and we try and present Excellence to the world

01:01:30,710 –> 01:01:35,819
uh and so the weird funky ferments where retino
mycies or pediococcus this other bacteria

01:01:35,819 –> 01:01:40,910
have really come into full effect we’ve decided
to control them and figure out what makes

01:01:40,910 –> 01:01:45,150
them taste good as opposed to showing you
all the weirdo nasty things that we can ferment

01:01:45,150 –> 01:01:50,539
in the corner um and so Pullman stone is something
that we’ve returned to over and over again

01:01:50,539 –> 01:01:55,720
we start off with kind of a wild and funky
fermentation with a lot of organisms all growing

01:01:55,720 –> 01:02:01,830
together to make alcohol for us and then right
at the end we dump a bunch of fresh stone

01:02:01,830 –> 01:02:06,710
fruit on top and so by adding it at the end
it’s not a co-ferment but it’s a finishing

01:02:06,710 –> 01:02:11,660
choice so this has been finished with apricots
and some nectarines and I think five gallons

01:02:11,660 –> 01:02:19,020
of plums it gives it so much color for just
a finishing ferments it’s really it’s a beautiful

01:02:19,020 –> 01:02:25,069
sidebar for those of you following along what
he said burning down The Cider House that’s

01:02:25,069 –> 01:02:29,960
not an exaggeration in the wine world because
well he’s talking about like mixing the right

01:02:29,960 –> 01:02:34,299
amount of this you know starter yeast or this
starter yeast and then pitching it into the

01:02:34,299 –> 01:02:41,200
fermentation once the yeast is in a location
it goes on living there in the air naturally

01:02:41,200 –> 01:02:47,549
in perpetuity you literally would have to
burn down the winery or Cider House or Brewery

01:02:47,549 –> 01:02:52,170
if you didn’t want a chance of britannomize
he’s getting in your sperminations from that

01:02:52,170 –> 01:02:57,670
point forward it’s like if you got glitter
somewhere in your house yeah just burn it

01:02:57,670 –> 01:03:05,830
down yeah yeah and actually in Danica are
you talking you’re gonna mute if you are oh

01:03:05,830 –> 01:03:10,990
no she was talking so well um um they actually
what was I gonna say about not about Glitter

01:03:10,990 –> 01:03:16,490
not about Glitter oh no in in breweries where
they really you know make a lot of sour beers

01:03:16,490 –> 01:03:21,589
but they also make other beers they actually
have almost like clean room standards for

01:03:21,589 –> 01:03:25,650
the fermentation of where their sour beers
are fermenting where it’s like literally like

01:03:25,650 –> 01:03:30,319
the barrels stay over there not like no same
equipment is used or nothing is cross-contained

01:03:30,319 –> 01:03:35,260
completely like different building miles apart
yeah yeah there was one in Asheville and your

01:03:35,260 –> 01:03:39,220
shoes off before you step inside this Brew
if you’ve just come from there there’s a brewery

01:03:39,220 –> 01:03:45,200
what’s the big Brewery in Asheville North
Carolina um they had the funkatorium was their

01:03:45,200 –> 01:03:51,579
sour beer bar and their sour beer and then
they had their stand they just sold to a big

01:03:51,579 –> 01:03:56,130
big brand recently um that’s why it’s left
my brain I can’t think of it yeah that’s why

01:03:56,130 –> 01:04:00,710
we don’t know what it’s called anymore but
yeah but they had a whole different like Brewery

01:04:00,710 –> 01:04:06,990
essentially for their sour beers and then
another one so it is yeah like glitter that’s

01:04:06,990 –> 01:04:13,339
remarkable that it’s that the apricots and
the plums and the tangerines were not co-fermented

01:04:13,339 –> 01:04:19,670
yeah how long are they kind of in contact
like how long is this finishing ferment nectarines

01:04:19,670 –> 01:04:27,109
not tangerines talking you know tangerines
and and nectarines yeah it’s different um

01:04:27,109 –> 01:04:34,059
the thing about apples and oranges and the
Citrus component yeah and the only the only

01:04:34,059 –> 01:04:39,339
reason that I don’t bring Citrus for example
uh up into fin River uh has to do with regional

01:04:39,339 –> 01:04:44,640
sourcing it doesn’t grow near here so there
are a lot of pretty rad ciders that are being

01:04:44,640 –> 01:04:49,299
produced um that have things like lemon peel
and grapefruit and oranges and tangerines

01:04:49,299 –> 01:04:54,490
um it’s just far away from me and so those
things don’t grow here but I’m quite intrigued

01:04:54,490 –> 01:04:59,099
and I’ve had a number of conversations being
like well what about all of these like um

01:04:59,099 –> 01:05:04,930
frosted oranges that came out of uh Central
California um there was a bad Frost three

01:05:04,930 –> 01:05:09,839
years ago that just basically dropped a ton
of fruit but the juices inside was still full

01:05:09,839 –> 01:05:14,819
of sugar but the fruit wasn’t going to be
uh visibly acceptable anyhow I don’t mean

01:05:14,819 –> 01:05:22,859
that as like a poke so much as like yeah tangerines
I daydream about it gotta come down to Arizona

01:05:22,859 –> 01:05:28,990
get your citrus down the uh uh contact time
I guess it varies a little bit we let it Sizzle

01:05:28,990 –> 01:05:34,890
and and we let so the sugar that you’re tasting
for example um is sugar that we added back

01:05:34,890 –> 01:05:41,029
uh and and so we’re we’re back sweetening
with Organic Cane’s sugar uh so what you’re

01:05:41,029 –> 01:05:45,630
tasting is not peach or nectarine or or Plum
sugar we’re letting that ferment through so

01:05:45,630 –> 01:05:50,020
that takes about a week week and a half uh
and we’re dumping whole chunks of fruit in

01:05:50,020 –> 01:05:54,339
there it’s been frozen so all the Skins are
all the cells have kind of like broken uh

01:05:54,339 –> 01:05:59,520
so it floats and it makes this kind of like
cheese flotilla of soft fruit pudding paste

01:05:59,520 –> 01:06:06,900
um and you can you can touch it and like you
know smear it around and kind of just um um

01:06:06,900 –> 01:06:13,520
and that fruit floats in this cap on top and
we don’t stir it we don’t deck it back down

01:06:13,520 –> 01:06:18,319
we just let it ride uh and and so once it’s
on top we’ll pull all the cider out from underneath

01:06:18,319 –> 01:06:23,589
it and that little bit of sizzling fermentation
uh from the last little bit of sugar kind

01:06:23,589 –> 01:06:29,460
of feeds the wild organisms right at the end
and we get just that much more Funk added

01:06:29,460 –> 01:06:35,279
to it if you’ll notice I mean I notice because
I’m sitting here talking uh a whole lot but

01:06:35,279 –> 01:06:41,200
uh the viscosity of the mucus in my mouth
is different now than what it was when I was

01:06:41,200 –> 01:06:48,930
drinking the dry hot and so I’m like right
that action is real um and that is coming

01:06:48,930 –> 01:06:57,059
from uh polysaccharide chains that are created
yeah that’s true um that are created by uh

01:06:57,059 –> 01:07:02,609
pediococcus and lactobacillus and these are
things that change the body and the texture

01:07:02,609 –> 01:07:07,640
of wine beer and cider and so we’re using
these organisms to create a totally different

01:07:07,640 –> 01:07:13,360
experience uh and so I’m feeling that I get
it we’re talking about the body the finish

01:07:13,360 –> 01:07:19,059
the the structure of the wine um yeah it’s
real and we’re impacting that so if you go

01:07:19,059 –> 01:07:24,720
back to the dry hop um and or the the fresh
hopped and and you drink that it’s crisp it’s

01:07:24,720 –> 01:07:29,160
edgy and it’s thin um and then you go into
the Pullman Stone and you’re like oh that’s

01:07:29,160 –> 01:07:33,520
fruity and it’s round oh yeah and it leaves
a lot going on here in your throat here on

01:07:33,520 –> 01:07:40,650
the top of your mouth um I I think anyways
that I get to play um I’m crafting that experience

01:07:40,650 –> 01:07:45,569
for you I’m showing you a different way for
your mouth and your body to experience a glass

01:07:45,569 –> 01:07:50,470
of cider in this case it’s got apricots in
it and in this case it has hops in it uh and

01:07:50,470 –> 01:07:56,750
we’re gonna dance back and forth um and you’re
going to be able to experience the variety

01:07:56,750 –> 01:08:01,529
that we can put on the table for you with
a fair amount of intention like I’m not totally

01:08:01,529 –> 01:08:06,450
making this stuff up I do pray you know to
the agricultural cider Gods from time to time

01:08:06,450 –> 01:08:10,700
to make sure that I’m in line with what they
want from me but we’re trying to show you

01:08:10,700 –> 01:08:15,500
things and we’re trying to take you on a trip
uh and it’s sometimes it’s about what’s in

01:08:15,500 –> 01:08:19,109
the bottle and sometimes it’s about what’s
on the farm and sometimes it’s about social

01:08:19,109 –> 01:08:23,213
justice in the world um because we’re just
humans moving through this space trying to

01:08:23,213 –> 01:08:28,520
figure out what it is that we’re supposed
to be doing cool yeah these are really quite

01:08:28,520 –> 01:08:32,480
quite lovely but not that I’m surprised we’ve
every time we have been River ciders they’re

01:08:32,480 –> 01:08:36,859
really great I’d love to hear Jay Danica Griff
I’d love to hear you know what you guys are

01:08:36,859 –> 01:08:41,650
thinking of these ciders and if you have a
favorite or if you have any questions or anything

01:08:41,650 –> 01:08:49,980
like that I think it’s really funny that you
hesitantly mentioned the tailgate situation

01:08:49,980 –> 01:08:56,790
because I’m only drinking one of them tonight
because the Chiefs are playing on Saturday

01:08:56,790 –> 01:09:03,089
and I’m gonna make everybody that we’re gonna
watch with try the other two that we have

01:09:03,089 –> 01:09:10,569
while we watch the game so good job spread
the fin River audience I guess with that one

01:09:10,569 –> 01:09:16,350
yeah which one did you drink tonight Danica
um this was the fresh hopped which I love

01:09:16,350 –> 01:09:21,810
it actually it’s so good I haven’t I’m not
excited or something that I’m still learning

01:09:21,810 –> 01:09:27,960
I don’t feel like we have a ton of cider around
here I’m in Kansas City and there’s not a

01:09:27,960 –> 01:09:32,920
lot of like cideries and stuff around here
so I don’t feel like it’s something we see

01:09:32,920 –> 01:09:37,730
as often but a lot of breweries will have
like a cider or something which I don’t feel

01:09:37,730 –> 01:09:44,429
like is the same so um this is really good
I’m a big fan of this one I am a big fan of

01:09:44,429 –> 01:09:49,080
sour beers usually too so that was fun to
hear you talk about that and I’m excited to

01:09:49,080 –> 01:09:54,870
try the sour one um because I’m a big usually
a big fan of sour beers because I like to

01:09:54,870 –> 01:09:59,350
taste like the fruits and stuff like that
so and not only the fruit but like this one’s

01:09:59,350 –> 01:10:04,120
so complex Sanic I think you guys were gonna
really like it it’s it does have like when

01:10:04,120 –> 01:10:09,280
I said Stilton not far off and there’s also
like the cheesiness toasted like hazelnut

01:10:09,280 –> 01:10:15,030
character going on to it that I don’t know
Andrew do associate that nuttiness with the

01:10:15,030 –> 01:10:22,000
actual pit or do you put the pit in there
it’s frozen fruit I think right yeah I would

01:10:22,000 –> 01:10:27,949
hope that most of the pits have been taken
out um I uh I actually really like apricot

01:10:27,949 –> 01:10:33,170
pits um if you crack them open there’s the
bitter almond that’s inside which is the flavor

01:10:33,170 –> 01:10:40,230
source of almond extract and marzipan um interesting
yeah side note uh there was this one year

01:10:40,230 –> 01:10:45,380
when I got a 5 gallon on bucket full of only
apricot pits from tonne maker Hill Farms and

01:10:45,380 –> 01:10:50,550
I sat there and cracked them all and I had
a giant pile of bitter almonds on my table

01:10:50,550 –> 01:10:55,409
uh and I was just like breathing them in and
eating them and it was a dare with my daughter

01:10:55,409 –> 01:11:04,020
to eat them because they’re kind of like bitter
and uncomfortable um maybe I mean yeah sure

01:11:04,020 –> 01:11:11,440
slash slash amazing um and and you know the
Earth giving you a great gift um so yeah we’re

01:11:11,440 –> 01:11:17,429
keeping the pits out for sure I think that
that nuttiness for what it’s worth um is it

01:11:17,429 –> 01:11:24,370
it’s not acid aldehyde um but it’s the buttered
popcorn flavor uh maybe it is acetyl acetyl

01:11:24,370 –> 01:11:31,679
acetyl aldehyde um that you get from from
malolactic fermentation yeah yeah and you

01:11:31,679 –> 01:11:37,510
get as a beer flaw like it’s a very common
home Brewer mistake um you get you get that

01:11:37,510 –> 01:11:43,380
nutty popcorn flavor thing diacetyl there
you go um thank you so what what I think we’re

01:11:43,380 –> 01:11:47,930
talking about is diacetyl that’s been produced
by lactobacillus organisms and if you get

01:11:47,930 –> 01:11:52,889
a threshold it’s really quite delightful and
it adds depth and it gives you some nuttiness

01:11:52,889 –> 01:11:57,540
and some and and some kind of deeper biscuity
notes um and then if you go overboard with

01:11:57,540 –> 01:12:02,550
it when you you breathe out it tastes like
popcorn kernels and if you get even worse

01:12:02,550 –> 01:12:07,040
and stronger than that you’re you’re wondering
if you’re drinking something like butter beer

01:12:07,040 –> 01:12:12,350
um and some some Harry Potter concoction kind
of thing uh and so there’s a balancing of

01:12:12,350 –> 01:12:17,110
flaws and I guess that speaks to it is that
like yeah um if you tasted that nuttiness

01:12:17,110 –> 01:12:25,110
I think uh in a cleaner cider you would identify
it immediately as a rookie mistake or a contamination

01:12:25,110 –> 01:12:30,570
and instead what we have is a balancing of
flaws to make you know these things are so

01:12:30,570 –> 01:12:35,520
bad and now they taste so good um or you can
threshold with where you get a little you

01:12:35,520 –> 01:12:41,040
don’t taste any potato mices in this I definitely
put it in but the organism did not produce

01:12:41,040 –> 01:12:47,780
the three components that it makes that taste
like horse sweat and leather uh and polyvinyl

01:12:47,780 –> 01:12:51,510
right those are the notes that you’re going
to get from a britannomyces contamination

01:12:51,510 –> 01:12:56,080
and I wanted that and then they don’t show
up and it’s hard to make them show up in cider

01:12:56,080 –> 01:13:01,969
in a consistent way so it doesn’t taste like
Band-Aids just so you know I was trying and

01:13:01,969 –> 01:13:03,239
it didn’t work out um

01:13:03,239 –> 01:13:10,739
it is interesting the more like I come to
understand and learn about fermentation in

01:13:10,739 –> 01:13:18,090
general or pretendomizes you know lactobacillus
any kind of fermentation the inoculation that

01:13:18,090 –> 01:13:22,500
you might put in there and even the stuff
that you can recognize in the environment

01:13:22,500 –> 01:13:29,810
around there have less than I I think it was
proposed there’s like less than a 70 likelihood

01:13:29,810 –> 01:13:34,610
that that same one that you inoculate with
is going to be the one that completes the

01:13:34,610 –> 01:13:39,540
fermentation and you’re just like I’m hoping
I’m rolling the dice and this is what I’m

01:13:39,540 –> 01:13:45,469
putting in there it’s nice that they’re not
too expensive um you could you can throw cultures

01:13:45,469 –> 01:13:50,570
upon cultures the neat thing is when you start
throwing weird farm implements into the cider

01:13:50,570 –> 01:13:54,550
uh trying to see what what you’ll get so like
you know the old shovel that you found out

01:13:54,550 –> 01:13:59,040
there you cut the handle off and you split
the the wooden handle with a hatchet and then

01:13:59,040 –> 01:14:04,660
you can throw those as staves uh into your
cider see if that would be different if you

01:14:04,660 –> 01:14:09,360
think about uh the old family paddle uh in
the Norwegian beer making tradition where

01:14:09,360 –> 01:14:15,100
the the family paddle sat up uh above and
you would use it to stir and inoculate I think

01:14:15,100 –> 01:14:18,810
that’s some history of some sour beer kind
of fermentations right that’s where the yeast

01:14:18,810 –> 01:14:24,090
were that’s better than like yanking your
beard and then washing your hands in the liquid

01:14:24,090 –> 01:14:32,320
um we’ll we’ll keep it tidy uh we did make
a field of hay Cider at one point where um

01:14:32,320 –> 01:14:39,110
the farmer that leases some land from us had
a fresh cut bale of hay that came in early

01:14:39,110 –> 01:14:45,139
spring um because of a weird rotation of crops
and so this was before flower heads had formed

01:14:45,139 –> 01:14:51,060
and so I had a gluten-free bale of hay and
I took that veil of hay and we shoved it into

01:14:51,060 –> 01:14:57,980
some cider uh and and we gave people a taste
of like mowing lawn like it was it was a beautiful

01:14:57,980 –> 01:15:05,620
bit of like grassy wildness on some good cider
uh and it tasted like you had just sliced

01:15:05,620 –> 01:15:10,219
uh like you had just run your lawnmower over
like the freshest cut grass uh and it was

01:15:10,219 –> 01:15:15,030
subtle and it was an out breath and it was
delightful um but this idea of introducing

01:15:15,030 –> 01:15:20,930
a variety of flavors to the game cider also
has a lot of flexibility because we don’t

01:15:20,930 –> 01:15:25,670
have those rules like they do in France because
we don’t have standards um we get to make

01:15:25,670 –> 01:15:30,500
our own standards and it’s up to me to convince
you all that uh Finn River has standards and

01:15:30,500 –> 01:15:36,340
you can trust us you can trust me to not do
terrible things to you um and and that’s the

01:15:36,340 –> 01:15:41,880
the the gameplay in the world I think is that
uh you know excellent is coming in somewhere

01:15:41,880 –> 01:15:48,320
um yeah field of hay is available it’s delightful
Artisan hey I know there’s some Artisan kindling

01:15:48,320 –> 01:15:56,100
around um but the Artisan hay or the craft
bale of hay those are real things Artisan

01:15:56,100 –> 01:16:01,420
hey I love it I love it hey Griff did you
have anything you wanted to chime in on what

01:16:01,420 –> 01:16:08,560
you’re thinking over there I I I beg to disagree
on on this a little bit because actually I

01:16:08,560 –> 01:16:17,250
smell leather in here oh when I mean there’s
some leather in here uh and so it’s it’s really

01:16:17,250 –> 01:16:22,560
nice it you know it’s with the old the whole
thing is is is really nice and and here in

01:16:22,560 –> 01:16:29,170
Georgia uh I’m in Ellijay Georgia and Ellijay
is in Gilmer County and Gilmer County uh considers

01:16:29,170 –> 01:16:35,930
itself the Apple capital of Georgia so we
actually grow a lot of apples up here there

01:16:35,930 –> 01:16:42,450
are Apple houses all over the the county and
uh there are now some a couple of cideries

01:16:42,450 –> 01:16:52,420
that are making cider so um it’s it’s growing
up here in terms of of cider and uh and uh

01:16:52,420 –> 01:16:58,520
I I was real interested when I got the the
deciders as well because The Farmstead is

01:16:58,520 –> 01:17:04,210
interesting because I actually our street
address is on Farmstead road so we actually

01:17:04,210 –> 01:17:10,260
uh have a Farmstead connection with The Farmstead
cider yeah that’s great sounds like that bottle

01:17:10,260 –> 01:17:14,420
should turn into a little a little bun vase
or something to keep around the house there

01:17:14,420 –> 01:17:19,510
you go

01:17:19,510 –> 01:17:24,991
these these all have been these these have
been great um I I really like the the uh the

01:17:24,991 –> 01:17:31,570
the pump and stone I really do yeah I think
that there are numerous ways to present peaches

01:17:31,570 –> 01:17:36,630
and apricots and stone fruit uh into the world
and oftentimes you see it in like Bourbon

01:17:36,630 –> 01:17:44,330
Barrel Peach uh uh or uh things that are like
sweet peach tea and they go uh for my taste

01:17:44,330 –> 01:17:49,262
anyways a fair bit overboard and just like
blowing you out of the water uh I want you

01:17:49,262 –> 01:17:53,610
to be able to drink a full Pint and then I
want you to be able to go back to the bar

01:17:53,610 –> 01:17:58,710
and get something else and have a really lovely
evening um I don’t want to blow you out I

01:17:58,710 –> 01:18:03,010
don’t want to fill your belly I don’t want
to ruin your existence kind of thing um and

01:18:03,010 –> 01:18:08,560
so this uh notion of a subtle peach or a subtle
apricot in this case like yeah there’s a lot

01:18:08,560 –> 01:18:14,330
going on here but I’d like to think at least
in in my world um this isn’t overwhelming

01:18:14,330 –> 01:18:20,060
and it’s not gonna to be the the end of your
evening it’s going to be a delightful moment

01:18:20,060 –> 01:18:24,330
that you can move through and that you could
throw some cheese at or you could throw some

01:18:24,330 –> 01:18:28,760
baby back ribs at like it kind of it depends
on what mood you’re in and where you’re at

01:18:28,760 –> 01:18:32,920
in terms of like making a crowd pleaser or
making something like austere and far away

01:18:32,920 –> 01:18:38,710
and difficult to get at um yeah we have an
issue here in in North Georgia with there

01:18:38,710 –> 01:18:47,600
are a lot of wineries here as well now and
uh most of them are on the way sweet side

01:18:47,600 –> 01:18:55,210
and so they they become real overpowering
and and uh a lot of the wines um and I haven’t

01:18:55,210 –> 01:19:01,810
I haven’t tried any of the ciders here locally
yet but uh I I would guess that they may also

01:19:01,810 –> 01:19:06,960
be if they’re if they’ve done anything with
fruit or whatever they’re probably going to

01:19:06,960 –> 01:19:16,230
be a little bit overbearing but uh you know
to the point um sugar cells uh and as many

01:19:16,230 –> 01:19:21,389
people come to the table and say hey I like
a dry a dry wine or a dry cider and then they’re

01:19:21,389 –> 01:19:25,940
going to walk away with like one of the sweeter
things on our lineup um it’s hard to get away

01:19:25,940 –> 01:19:31,219
from and so finding your local operation that
is going to make something that hits that

01:19:31,219 –> 01:19:37,989
Mark it’s truly amazing when you get there
um there’s a a number of local breweries up

01:19:37,989 –> 01:19:42,489
here near Port Townsend and you know from
my perspective it takes a fair bit of beer

01:19:42,489 –> 01:19:48,750
to make a nice cider and so as I go out and
I hunt for my beers I’m looking for a specific

01:19:48,750 –> 01:19:52,870
something I’m looking for something that’s
dry and crisp and edgy and I want to be able

01:19:52,870 –> 01:19:57,750
to have that but I acknowledge that what I
want isn’t necessarily what’s going to make

01:19:57,750 –> 01:20:01,740
a ton of money for the brewery and so you’ve
got small businesses balanced on consumer

01:20:01,740 –> 01:20:07,330
preference and yeah sometimes it’s hard to
find something that feels dry uh or is dry

01:20:07,330 –> 01:20:15,120
and complex at the same time I did a quick
search uh Brick River Cider Company uh and

01:20:15,120 –> 01:20:20,610
is there in Kansas City there’s also one called
the summer Somerset wine and cider bar um

01:20:20,610 –> 01:20:26,540
just as a throwback here this is not in Georgia
um but the somerset wine and cider bars Somerset

01:20:26,540 –> 01:20:32,840
is a region of England that is known for their
country Bittersweet ciders uh highfalutin

01:20:32,840 –> 01:20:36,690
uh and so if you’re looking there in Kansas
City being like where are The Cider houses

01:20:36,690 –> 01:20:42,300
uh it’s true only three popped up when I went
looking at the American cider Association

01:20:42,300 –> 01:20:49,600
uh uh map finder kind of notion I would gravitate
towards the one that says Somerset Somerset

01:20:49,600 –> 01:20:56,311
is an incredible region of Bittersweet tannic
crazy Apple people uh in England and they’re

01:20:56,311 –> 01:20:59,730
making something amazing there and so if that’s
what their focus is I bet you’re going to

01:20:59,730 –> 01:21:04,850
find something that is less Angry Orchard
and a lot more craft showing up in a place

01:21:04,850 –> 01:21:09,300
like that I do not have that kind of support
for Georgia yeah

01:21:09,300 –> 01:21:16,710
if I would say you know for the Y one stream
and later industry too I feel like as alcohol

01:21:16,710 –> 01:21:21,810
Industries start off in regions and start
to like get their steam sugar covers up a

01:21:21,810 –> 01:21:28,300
lot of flaws sugar makes things palatable
that otherwise wouldn’t be so while you know

01:21:28,300 –> 01:21:32,530
wine makers and cider makers are figuring
out like what grapes grow here what do I do

01:21:32,530 –> 01:21:36,540
with these grapes what are like I think that’s
common that things kind of start out a little

01:21:36,540 –> 01:21:40,960
bit sweeter and then as they get their groove
and they figure out like don’t plant Those

01:21:40,960 –> 01:21:46,360
Grapes here don’t work with that here they
start to like find their you know their spot

01:21:46,360 –> 01:21:53,389
and yeah and I was gonna say and culturally
uh and this is from a little bit of time that

01:21:53,389 –> 01:21:59,790
I spent there my my grandparents uh retired
to Florida as many grandparents do um but

01:21:59,790 –> 01:22:05,510
more more recently I spent the last 10 years
doing Wine Tours in Napa and Sonoma and met

01:22:05,510 –> 01:22:09,929
a lot of people from Georgia and other parts
of the South and I always could tell without

01:22:09,929 –> 01:22:14,810
them even telling me not because of an accent
or anything like that but because when we

01:22:14,810 –> 01:22:21,510
would sit down for lunch and they would order
iced tea they would specify any sweetened

01:22:21,510 –> 01:22:28,590
iced tea and you don’t have to say that anywhere
else here anywhere else yeah I was like oh

01:22:28,590 –> 01:22:35,560
you’re free yeah so the palette bear is much
sweeter for sure yeah and we do have one Winery

01:22:35,560 –> 01:22:45,409
uh here it’s the Buckley Winery uh and they
make a an apple wine which is dry crisp and

01:22:45,409 –> 01:22:53,120
very delightful cool uh yeah it’s it’s it’s
uh done with a lot out of Georgia fruit too

01:22:53,120 –> 01:23:01,690
so very nice just to clarify if you’re familiar
do you know is this grape juice and apple

01:23:01,690 –> 01:23:09,250
juice because apple is kind of mean both sometimes
it’s it’s a little both I think I think there’s

01:23:09,250 –> 01:23:17,310
uh probably grape and apple with you know
in making this wine yes got it I uh we’ve

01:23:17,310 –> 01:23:22,440
been trying to keep up with The Californians
uh is how I see it for what it’s worth I’m

01:23:22,440 –> 01:23:27,060
born and raised in Southern California uh
and what I’m noticing in the Sonoma area in

01:23:27,060 –> 01:23:33,550
the you know wine country of California you
also have a handful of cider makers popping

01:23:33,550 –> 01:23:40,159
up and they they attempt to self-describe
themselves as Rebels um and and you know they’re

01:23:40,159 –> 01:23:44,820
they’re non-wine makers they’re making alternative
alcoholic beverages and they’re not sourcing

01:23:44,820 –> 01:23:51,610
grain from the Midwest or anything like that
and so you’ve got these uh uh Folks at Tilted

01:23:51,610 –> 01:23:56,010
shed is really who I’m referencing um who
are making a bunch of hybrid things where

01:23:56,010 –> 01:24:00,510
they’re doing co-fermentations of grapes and
apples they’re doing co-fermentations of plums

01:24:00,510 –> 01:24:06,380
and apples and they’re doing it on dry Farm
fruit and uh uh no you know no irrigation

01:24:06,380 –> 01:24:10,370
whatever it is that’s showing up in the land
that kind of framework and they’re making

01:24:10,370 –> 01:24:16,130
Boutique bottles of amazing uh fermented beverage
and you can call it wine because it’s alcohol

01:24:16,130 –> 01:24:22,020
from fruit you can call it a hybrid wine because
it’s alcohol from from apples and grapes uh

01:24:22,020 –> 01:24:26,850
but there’s a a number of definitions that
are being broken right now by cider makers

01:24:26,850 –> 01:24:33,710
who are putting novel Notions out into the
world Finn River does some of that uh we don’t

01:24:33,710 –> 01:24:39,921
sell it broadly it’s part of our club uh I
will shamelessly pitch um yes thank you it

01:24:39,921 –> 01:24:44,440
is quite Punk um I will shamelessly pitch
that we put our new releases into our club

01:24:44,440 –> 01:24:48,690
first um and that’s the framework there we’re
going to show you the best of what we got

01:24:48,690 –> 01:24:54,890
uh uh in our club members to make sure that
they’re seeing the avant-garde of our cider

01:24:54,890 –> 01:25:02,600
production uh but in that same framework we’re
we put out I think I bought in 300 gallons

01:25:02,600 –> 01:25:07,780
of rusan grape juice from the Yakima Valley
this last year and we co-fermented that with

01:25:07,780 –> 01:25:13,830
Perry pears nobody really knows what Perry
pears are they’re not broad spread it’s not

01:25:13,830 –> 01:25:18,020
a consumer concept that people understand
these are weird little pears that we grow

01:25:18,020 –> 01:25:21,460
because we make weird little batches of wine
out of weird little pears and then we tell

01:25:21,460 –> 01:25:25,840
everybody about them like it’s bizarre and
instead we’re going to combine them with grapes

01:25:25,840 –> 01:25:31,630
and then we’re going to tell you about that
um and so in in that framework yeah you bet

01:25:31,630 –> 01:25:36,219
um we’re playing the game whether it be peaches
whether it be pears and grapes together there’s

01:25:36,219 –> 01:25:41,880
a framework for it and you know who doesn’t
have the like bureaucratic binds that the

01:25:41,880 –> 01:25:49,280
beer world and the wine world have cider world
yeah we have freedom Testament to what the

01:25:49,280 –> 01:25:54,480
question was that Suzanne posed earlier is
like how important is it in this kind of relatively

01:25:54,480 –> 01:26:00,530
nascent industry in the United States at least
of having the freedom to really kind of uh

01:26:00,530 –> 01:26:05,389
let producers come into their own before they
start slapping labels and creating definitions

01:26:05,389 –> 01:26:11,469
that are restrictive and I think it’s a really
important kind of point in time for The Cider

01:26:11,469 –> 01:26:17,940
making industry to like take a breath like
I know it’s not necessarily super helpful

01:26:17,940 –> 01:26:24,640
for the consumers right now to not have everything
set in stone but it really isn’t going to

01:26:24,640 –> 01:26:33,080
allow for the creativity that will potentially
make some really cool stuff um yeah I mean

01:26:33,080 –> 01:26:37,199
Andrew if you’re familiar with tilted shed
you might be also familiar with a winery that’s

01:26:37,199 –> 01:26:42,860
doing a similar thing in the other direction
yeah um kibble stock sellers also in Sonoma

01:26:42,860 –> 01:26:48,170
they make a gravanyan Blanc so grabbing scene
apples with sauvignon blanc it’s quite fun

01:26:48,170 –> 01:26:52,990
yeah yeah good stuff they do cool stuff for
sure The Californians are super fond of that

01:26:52,990 –> 01:27:01,300
Gravenstein Apple they do they do seem to
think it’s amazing yes [Laughter] yeah uh

01:27:01,300 –> 01:27:08,889
I I’ve seen that and uh to the same notion
like there’s a framework for novelty um and

01:27:08,889 –> 01:27:13,199
there’s a framework for experimentation and
then there’s Connor stewardship and so how

01:27:13,199 –> 01:27:20,000
do you walk the line between not facilitating
a waste of your time and a waste of your money

01:27:20,000 –> 01:27:24,420
as well as facilitating the creativity um
and so there’s I feel like there’s a commitment

01:27:24,420 –> 01:27:30,270
there and that is where brand recognition
and brand identity comes back into it uh and

01:27:30,270 –> 01:27:37,000
and relationship and so you know I don’t necessarily
trust every Cider Company out there to be

01:27:37,000 –> 01:27:41,030
making something that I think is going to
be amazing uh because their cider maker came

01:27:41,030 –> 01:27:45,810
up with some novel combination that blows
my mind uh I don’t know that it’s going to

01:27:45,810 –> 01:27:50,619
taste good is it worth my money I’m at the
same uh question about you know 90 of the

01:27:50,619 –> 01:27:55,510
bottles of wine that I’m looking at in the
grocery store uh I don’t have a relationship

01:27:55,510 –> 01:28:00,440
with the winery itself and so I’m guessing
about the wines that they’re communicating

01:28:00,440 –> 01:28:04,110
you know so how are they communicating with
me when I’m there what’s on the label and

01:28:04,110 –> 01:28:11,440
why and all of that plays out for cider as
well uh and so you know setting expectations

01:28:11,440 –> 01:28:17,270
cider is Young that’s very much true and there
isn’t a lot of standardization and sometimes

01:28:17,270 –> 01:28:22,780
you get something wild and you’re like this
is this is not for me um and that’s great

01:28:22,780 –> 01:28:28,540
and you should I I would encourage you to
see that I guess as a growth potential or

01:28:28,540 –> 01:28:35,060
a a space of exploration that feels amazing
um as opposed to a space of disappointment

01:28:35,060 –> 01:28:40,710
um and and wasting uh and so you know so long
as they’re not uh perpetrating something against

01:28:40,710 –> 01:28:45,760
you the the notion of someone presenting something
new to your palette something new to your

01:28:45,760 –> 01:28:51,880
brain space that feels powerful and I think
cider has open space for that to occur uh

01:28:51,880 –> 01:28:55,810
both in the consumer the you know the customer
that’s going to be consuming it as well as

01:28:55,810 –> 01:29:01,540
in the fermenter I try and walk that line
myself we are now a legacy company uh we’ve

01:29:01,540 –> 01:29:07,330
been around for more than 10 years and we’re
Old-Timers in The Cider industry yeah for

01:29:07,330 –> 01:29:16,080
sure some of the OG um about cider is also
very old right of our country really so it’s

01:29:16,080 –> 01:29:21,219
it’s an interesting dichotomy that this industry
kind of has um hey we’d be happy to stick

01:29:21,219 –> 01:29:24,630
around and chat with you guys a little bit
more but just want to be respectful of everyone’s

01:29:24,630 –> 01:29:30,960
time um and realize that uh we somehow are
90 minutes in all of a sudden at the end of

01:29:30,960 –> 01:29:35,679
the 90 minutes time flies when you’re having
fun and talk Insider so thank you to all of

01:29:35,679 –> 01:29:42,389
you who are here and Andrew for your time
yeah chatting here with us about Finn River

01:29:42,389 –> 01:29:49,010
so remarkable such great storytelling great
um we can’t wait to the next time we could

01:29:49,010 –> 01:29:55,659
hang out with you and maybe it’ll be in person
yeah absolutely we’ll come escape the Arizona

01:29:55,659 –> 01:30:00,070
Yeah we actually have to head out we’ve got
a couple things to do tonight but before we

01:30:00,070 –> 01:30:07,239
go I just wanted to say my sister lives in
Mukilteo Washington which is outside of Seattle

01:30:07,239 –> 01:30:11,530
so we’ve already been like mapping out I like
already sent your guys’s location to her and

01:30:11,530 –> 01:30:16,980
we’ve been like mapping out like how can we
make a trip over to you guys the next time

01:30:16,980 –> 01:30:21,520
I’m up there because it looks like if we include
a ferry it’s only like an hour and a half

01:30:21,520 –> 01:30:26,840
or like two hours okay let me clarify it’s
gonna be two hours to two and a half hours

01:30:26,840 –> 01:30:35,410
from anywhere the ferry system is uh problematic
at best um and if you need help finding lodging

01:30:35,410 –> 01:30:41,070
out here you should I put my email into the
chat it’s Andrew at Finn River um it can be

01:30:41,070 –> 01:30:45,480
complicated we are out here it’s worth it
there’s a lot of other things to see there’s

01:30:45,480 –> 01:30:51,219
cool breweries there’s amazing Lakes there’s
incredible mountains yes come visit however

01:30:51,219 –> 01:30:57,369
um doing it as a day trip back and forth um
pick a weekday don’t trust the fairies um

01:30:57,369 –> 01:31:01,130
I’m trying to think of like a parallel in
the world it’s like Subways in New York they

01:31:01,130 –> 01:31:06,730
go down all the time no the ferries are just
problematic to build life around um in so

01:31:06,730 –> 01:31:12,091
many ways but at the same point in time good
advice come on now send me an email if you

01:31:12,091 –> 01:31:16,270
need help planning like I got that kind of
space and time and if I don’t I’ll liaise

01:31:16,270 –> 01:31:23,560
you to someone in a Finn River who can uh
support General travel uh advice that kind

01:31:23,560 –> 01:31:31,220
of thing um maybe we’ll join yeah we’ll all
just have a little SipScout party live and

01:31:31,220 –> 01:31:34,969
in person out there if we’re gonna have taking
a ferry that’s more fun with friends right

01:31:34,969 –> 01:31:40,920
yeah we’re all just hanging out together the
Puget Sound fairies are like the opposite

01:31:40,920 –> 01:31:49,750
of Mussolini yeah you did not run on time
and never will yeah but often they serve pretty

01:31:49,750 –> 01:31:55,090
good beer in the galley um and so you what
what time you need to pass you can pass it

01:31:55,090 –> 01:32:00,760
well with good friends um uh and I appreciate
that aspect yeah awesome well thank you so

01:32:00,760 –> 01:32:05,159
much it was so nice to meet you and it was
so great to learn about cider from you so

01:32:05,159 –> 01:32:10,270
we appreciate all of you guys it’s so good
to see you thank you Danica have a great night

01:32:10,270 –> 01:32:16,940
thank you so much Andrew we really appreciate
your time oh yeah piece of cake yeah thank

01:32:16,940 –> 01:32:24,410
you for all the information it was great yeah
I put some Notions uh Reese’s Cider Company

01:32:24,410 –> 01:32:30,330
down there uh in the chat um if you don’t
know of it it’s not too far away all right

01:32:30,330 –> 01:32:35,120
yeah I didn’t know about Reese’s I have not
been there yet they’ve they’ve not been open

01:32:35,120 –> 01:32:42,250
that long but uh but it’s on my list to go
go visit I’ve seen three emails from them

01:32:42,250 –> 01:32:47,440
in general in the world of cidermaker people
uh and they seem to be putting together something

01:32:47,440 –> 01:32:52,270
that is focused on paying attention to the
juice uh and and that they are real people

01:32:52,270 –> 01:32:56,690
crafting a real thing uh so if you don’t like
it you get to hold them accountable for it

01:32:56,690 –> 01:33:01,130
because they are solely responsible for what
it is that you’re going to taste they’ve been

01:33:01,130 –> 01:33:08,170
growing apples in this region for probably
over 75 years I would bet or fermentation

01:33:08,170 –> 01:33:11,770
isn’t that difficult you know people been
doing this for hundreds of years they ought

01:33:11,770 –> 01:33:17,620
to be able to get it right exactly by accident
thanks for coming out tonight Greg thanks

01:33:17,620 –> 01:33:23,270
all right everyone have a great evening we’ll
talk to you soon and next week next month

01:33:23,270 –> 01:33:27,610
is wine and chocolate and we’ll have some
fun two days after Valentine’s Day on this

01:33:27,610 –> 01:33:28,980
again and we’ll see you then

01:33:28,980 –> 01:33:29,489
[Applause] [Music]

Until next time… Drink craft and drink the world. Cheers!

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